Ukraine War

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CFordUNC said:
Very few things shock and surprise me anymore, but I'll be forever shocked by the American Right's surrender to Russia. Would have never in a million years believed it.
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There was an earthquake reported in Simi Valley CA centered about 6 ft below the surface. It was discovered that it wasn't an actual earthquake, but Reagan rolling over in his grave.
 
BillOfRights said:
There was an earthquake reported in Simi Valley CA centered about 6 ft below the surface. It was discovered that it wasn't an actual earthquake, but Reagan rolling over in his grave.
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There are a lot of Republican leaders from the past rolling over in their graves. It’s a good thing they are dead, because if they were alive and saw the current state of the Republican Party it would kill them.
 
Mundial said:
I disagree in that (i) Putin will have been rewarded by Trump for this invasion, (ii) there is a significant chance that he will feel emboldened by Trump's public declaration that the US will do nothing if Europe is attacked, (iii) such aggression directly threatens Europe and in my view the UK and (iv) the combined armies of Germany, France, the UK, and Poland (not to mention the rest of NATO other than the US) would be able to crush and drive out Russia from Ukranian territory in a matter of weeks.

So I think that there is a chance that you are wrong in that Europe may determine that it faces an existential crisis and act accordingly just like Israel does in the middle east when facing such threats except that the combined European armies are much more powerful.

So something along the lines of such European alliance forcing Russia out and restoring Ukraine's borders and establishing a DMZ along the border akin to North/South Korea. In my view they possibly seize/blockage Kaliningrad as an unacceptable security risk behind the line. Russia would then have to decide if nuclear escalation is worth it. I think it is improbable given how much Putin and his oligarchs love money and the good life.
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Europe has an aging population. They're starved of energy too. When this entire conflict ends (and it will), they'll return to buying Russian energy because what other option do they have? What most people don't realize about the fights that have been raging the last decade or more, from Libya, to Israel, to Syria, to Ukraine, its ALL ABOUT ENERGY and who controls the pipelines. Plus its about who de facto controls the governments who control the pipelines. Its really not ideological, the true existential crisis going on has to do with long-term European energy security and the demographic crisis on the continent. European (especially German) industry faces a very bleak future and will likely take more economic blows before this all settles. So why are you raging about how NATO is out to crush Russia? Russia is a reality these countries have to live with, what version of Russia will they be is the question.

Russia also has major demographic problems, and its what will limit further Russian expansionism into Europe. Whenever this war comes to an end, Russia's security concerns will logically turn towards their South and a bit to their East. This Russia-China alliance is temporarily convenient however Russia isn't going to enjoy being a junior partner to a Chinese superpower. Furthermore, Turkey and Iran present more strategic threats to Russia than Europe will, especially given the only population in Russia procreating in substantial numbers are all Muslim. Russia has fought historically almost as many wars against the Turks/Ottomans and the Persians than they have with the Europeans. This becomes more relevant too given the Chinese-Iranian oil deal, Russia needs to be very weary about how much of that Chinese money the Iranians will be pumping into its own military for the foreseeable future.
 
CFordUNC said:
Man. This is rough. I know we've been heading down this path for a while now but I think that history will look back on this betrayal of Ukraine as the formal end of Pax Americana and the United States' global leadership and our dominance economically, militarily, culturally for almost 8 decades. It's a bitter pill to swallow watching the U.S. completely sell out an ally and capitulate to Russia, and even more bitter to watch us needlessly and almost effortlessly forfeit our role atop the global hierarchy.
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Quit bloviating and spouting hollow rhetoric. Your recollection of recent history is dogshit. Obama was feckless in dealing with Putin and even mocked Romney for warning about Putin. He sent MREs and blankets when Russia took crimea. Crickets from Ford then. Where was your faux outrage? Putin doesn’t move an inch with trump in office but as soon as he is out he invades a second time because pudding eating Joe has less of a spine than obama. He had 3 fucking years to do something but couldn’t find the light switch to get out of the basement. He was so useless he allowed Europe to sit back while we shouldered most of the support. Now in less than a month trump has Russia’s attention to cut a deal to end the war and you, like the idiot you are want to bitch about abandoning a country that was a fringe ally, rooted in corruption while self fellating during the last 3 years without a care in the world of brokering peace.

I would really love to know how you think it should be handled. Offer some credible opinion rather than your Kamala sounding fake indignation. Man the fuck up and tell me what trump should do and why you give vegetable Joe a pass for being the world’s bitch and military ATM. Your party’s leadership on Russia has been completely absent while Putin made Obama and Joe his prison bitches.
 
Patb78 said:
There are a lot of Republican leaders from the past rolling over in their graves. It’s a good thing they are dead, because if they were alive and saw the current state of the Republican Party it would kill them.
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The current state of the Republican is as follows:

POTUS - yep
House - yep
Senate - yep
SCOTUS - overwhelming majority
Majority of governorships - yep

I think they would be good.
 
BillOfRights said:
If Mexico invaded and occupied Texas, and Texans were dying, and the US was continuing to fight for our freedom and our fellow Americans, at what point would you say the US should cut our losses and let Mexico have Texas?
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Right about the time we decided we weren't able to get it back. Its the same calculation Mexico made when they let us have Texas.
 
If Trump is able to get a deal and end this war then the world is in a better place. However, can he do it without selling out the Ukrainians? So far it’s not looking good.
 
Callatoroy said:
Quit bloviating and spouting hollow rhetoric. Your recollection of recent history is dogshit. Obama was feckless in dealing with Putin and even mocked Romney for warning about Putin. He sent MREs and blankets when Russia took crimea. Crickets from Ford then. Where was your faux outrage? Putin doesn’t move an inch with trump in office but as soon as he is out he invades a second time because pudding eating Joe has less of a spine than obama. He had 3 fucking years to do something but couldn’t find the light switch to get out of the basement. He was so useless he allowed Europe to sit back while we shouldered most of the support. Now in less than a month trump has Russia’s attention to cut a deal to end the war and you, like the idiot you are want to bitch about abandoning a country that was a fringe ally, rooted in corruption while self fellating during the last 3 years without a care in the world of brokering peace.

I would really love to know how you think it should be handled. Offer some credible opinion rather than your Kamala sounding fake indignation. Man the fuck up and tell me what trump should do and why you give vegetable Joe a pass for being the world’s bitch and military ATM. Your party’s leadership on Russia has been completely absent while Putin made Obama and Joe his prison bitches.
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Holy shit, dude. Seriously, I’m not even joking or talking junk to you anymore, go get help. Right now. Quit following me around this board trying to [Mod edit — gist was to fellate this poster] all the time and go get help. You are literally breaking right before our eyes. This was a completely unhinged post. You are not healthy. You clearly have some anger management issues that you need to resolve before you continue participating here, if something as innocuous as what I posted causes you to go into a meltdown rage at 1 AM.

I think there’s a lot of folks on this board who, despite the fact that we think you are an enormous piece of shit, would be more than happy to help you get the help you clearly need. Some things are above politics, and you are very clearly in need of psychiatric help. That was not a normal response.
 
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For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
 
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CFordUNC said:
For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
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Ukraine is about to take it no lube as Putin Puppet Trump abandons Ukraine, except for land deals. The Kyiv, Gaz twofer vaca could be in your future. Putin and Trump are weak people. They can only bully those who they feel can be pushed around. At least Biden and Romney were serious about the damn Orcs. As a former Reagan Republican, this is a disgrace and stain upon our nation...while Trump and Bibi careen toward a hot M.E. War. But, hey, we're killing brown people.
 
Bobfripp said:
Finland, Estonia and Latvia, all NATO members, are already literally on his doorstep. Poland and Lithuania border the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad Oblast, so technically also have a border with Russia.
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Thanks for adding detail to the scope of the discussion. Change "a" to "another" for greater clarity.
I don't see Putin withdrawing Russia's threats against NATO membership for Ukraine as part of a deal.
I'd LOVE to be wrong. Zelensky wants in.
 
I never thought that I would see the day when China would supplant the USA as the premier global superpower.

but if I live another 4 years, there is a good chance that I will be here to bear witness to it...
 
heelinhell said:
I never thought that I would see the day when China would supplant the USA as the premier global superpower.

but if I live another 4 years, there is a good chance that I will be here to bear witness to it...
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The craziest thing about it is that China has plenty of issues of their own domestically, so it is a complete 100% own-goal for America to be surrendering our global leadership role to them. They aren’t taking it, we are begging them to have it. That is what is so shameful.
 
CFordUNC said:
The craziest thing about it is that China has plenty of issues of their own domestically, so it is a complete 100% own-goal for America to be surrendering our global leadership role to them. They aren’t taking it, we are begging them to have it. That is what is so shameful.
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It's not 100%, nor close, IMO. Give credit where credit is due.

China and Russia have long understood the core bigotries at the heart of a pluralizing society, particularly within the populism seeking demo. Both China and Russia have a better functional grasp on human mass psychology than Americans/US Gov. Any government has incentive for cynicism, but the US gov and populous has never fully grasped cynicism like China and Russia. "American exceptionalism" was always an insidiousness and self serving self-pat-on-the-back, destined to result in getting caught with our pants down, and offering a wide-ass-open door for disinformation and the seeds of schism. We've known this for a decade+, but folks would rather lean into grievances and insecurities than take a beat and review where this logically ends. Something about leading a horse to water ...
 
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