UNC/ACC Basketball History & UNC/Duke Rivalry

maxcrowder said:
yes you are correct. The problem is i was asked a question, i answered it and then we had gold post moving moment because they obviously did not know who they were debating with and then acted like they knew what "Dean's" strategy was. Seriously, i'm good. But this Center guy is IC, NasaHeel looney tune crazy.
Click to expand...

@maxcrowder — Is this the original question you are referring to and your response?

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

#2: Bigs23, Which games did Dean use the 4 corners because he didn’t think his team could compete?

#3: I'll throw one out, Feb 24th 1979, Half time score Duke 7 UNC 0, in Cameron.
 
Centerpiece said:
There were no “Cameron Crazies” in 1979. No such thing at that time. And you’re also correct: the “airball” chant had been around long before ‘79

Max thinks a lot of himself and his “debating” skills on the interwebs, but his debating style is akin to Trump’s. Bluster and bullying full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Plus he’s a friggin dookie on what is a Carolina message board, and specifically, a Carolina BASKETBALL thread, on a Carolina message board… casting aspersions on Dean Smith and his coaching no less.

What we need here is somebody like Manhattanheel to burn him a new one and put him in his place. I’m too tired from dealing with hurricane aftermath having just gotten power back on at the house after 8 days without. I’m looking forward to a hot shower, not suffering this fool Max.

I guess Max can be the House Dookie on this thread…. Only I won’t bother with him. He’s the first and only one I have on super ignore - ever since he called me ******…
Click to expand...
Regarding the “Cameron Crazies,” I think they existed by 1974…….they were a response to d00k absolutely sucking (yes, d00k fans, I’ll use d00k until the day I die - I grew up going to “Beat d00k” parades).…….going to games for d00kies was no fun because d00k SUCKED:
  • ‘69 - 15-13 (8-6) Vic Bubas
  • ‘70 - 17-9 (8-6) Bucky Waters
  • ‘71 - 20-10 (9-5) BW
  • ‘72 - 14-12 (6-6) BW
  • ‘73 - 12-14 (4-8) BW
  • ‘74 - 10-16 (2-10) Neill McGeachy (really good tennis player; name is Muh-Gay-Hey or something similar)
  • ‘75 - 13-13 (2-10) Bill Foster
  • ‘76 - 13-14 (3-9) BF ***
  • ‘77 - 14-13 (2-10) BF ***
  • ‘78 - d00k goes to the title game
***1976 and 1977, one could tell that Spanarkel and Gminski were special players and the Bucky Waters and Neill McGeachy years were coming to an end.

So, a SMALL number of d00k students banded together to make the games fun when they sucked. Absolutely sucked. The group cheers might have mocked d00k players; although, was Terry Chili really a player?
 
Zoo_View said:
Regarding the “Cameron Crazies,” I think they existed by 1974…….they were a response to d00k absolutely sucking (yes, d00k fans, I’ll use d00k until the day I die - I grew up going to “Beat d00k” parades).…….going to games for d00kies was no fun because d00k SUCKED:
  • ‘69 - 15-13 (8-6) Vic Bubas
  • ‘70 - 17-9 (8-6) Bucky Waters
  • ‘71 - 20-10 (9-5) BW
  • ‘72 - 14-12 (6-6) BW
  • ‘73 - 12-14 (4-8) BW
  • ‘74 - 10-16 (2-10) Neill McGeachy (really good tennis player; name is Muh-Gay-Hey or something similar)
  • ‘75 - 13-13 (2-10) Bill Foster
  • ‘76 - 13-14 (3-9) BF ***
  • ‘77 - 14-13 (2-10) BF ***
  • ‘78 - d00k goes to the title game
***1976 and 1977, one could tell that Spanarkel and Gminski were special players and the Bucky Waters and Neill McGeachy years were coming to an end.

So, a SMALL number of d00k students banded together to make the games fun when they sucked. Absolutely sucked. The group cheers might have mocked d00k players; although, was Terry Chili really a player?
Click to expand...
So the fans at that time (1974) may have been "fanatical", but the actual term "Cameron Crazies" did not come into existence until the 1980's with K and k'ville: Cameron Crazies - Wikipedia

goduke.com

Cameron Crazies - Duke University

Cameron Crazies
goduke.com goduke.com
 
But enough about all this crazy talk. This is a UNC basketball thread. I'd rather talk about Carmichael Auditorium.
 
Centerpiece said:
I understand completely. However the "house" term has nothing to do with what some might think. It comes directly from Harry Potter and the "House Elf" Dobby. The Harry Potter books and movies were all the rage in the early 2000's and that's when the phrase "house dookie" became prevalent on the UNC boards. It was a direct reference to Dobby. It was not meant to be a reference to anything else. That said, did J.K. Rowling come up with the term for her books based on old Slavery terminology from the American South in the 1800's? Who knows?

I think the phrase on the UNC boards was a bit of double-speak in that it's intention was both a jab at the dookie in question and almost as a cute term of "endearment" in a strange, schadenfreude sort of way, perhaps?
Click to expand...
Where do you think the term House Elf came from?
 
IMG_5090.jpeg


The first reference I can find to “four corners” and Dean Smith is in the December 19, 1965 ‘News and Observer.” The article starts off, “Carolina’s Tar Heels used quickness and a pesky pressing defense to overcome Florida’s distinct height advantage for a 66-59 basketball victory over the Gators here Saturday night.” Norm Sloan was the FLA coach. The win made UNC 5-2. Mention is made that Carolina led the country in Field Goal percentage but that night ‘only’ shot 49.1%. The article concludes, “Once the Tar Heels manufactured their working margin at the end, they made good use of their four corners offense, designed to spread out the taller Gators and thus neutralize their height.” (The term does seem to be used quite familiarly here - as if it was already part of the vernacular in something other than newspaper reporting which leads me to imagine that Coach Smith had used it before and even provided the name to reporters)

Twelve days later Carolina deployed the Four Corners in a 90-85 win over Utah. This was in the “Triangle Doubleheader” played in Raleigh, a short-lived effort to revive the Dixie Classic.

Regarding Coach Smith’s decisions to go to the Four Corners Offense. This from A Coach’s Life: Coach’s first mention there is associated with that same 1965-66 season. This was the year after Billy Cunningham graduated and The L&M Boys were the designated stars. Coach decided to return to 4C against nationally ranked #2 Duke in the ACC Tournament. Carolina was 16-10 (8-6) and tied for third in the regular season. Duke lost in the Final Four semi to Kentucky (who would go on to lose to UTEP in an historic final). [The Blue Devil stars were Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Steve Vacendak, and Mike Lewis…Bubas coached]

Duke played a zone. “I decided our best chance to control the pace of the game was to go to the Four Corners and make them come out to chase us in man or zone press defense.” P. 81. ACL Bubas didn’t. It was 5-7 at the half. Duke won 21-20. It would have been a major upset.

The next memorable deployment of the Four Corners offense was in the 1968 NCAA Championship vs UCLA and Lew Alcindor. “I decided our best chance to win would be to shorten the game. I’m sure it wasn’t a popular decision among our confident players, but it was still our best chance to win against a truly great UCLA team.” P. 109, ACL (Tar Heel stars were Scott, Miller, Clark, Bunting, and Grubar)

Coach Smith abandoned the Four Corners in the second half (down by 7 at the break, final 78-55, Alcindor 34).

In the 1976-77 NCAA Finals Coach again turned to the 4C against a big, talented team — that played zone defense, Marquette. It was 43-43 with 14 minutes to go when Coach held up four fingers. It is a sad ending to a miracle run that included a string of near riots on Franklin Street after a Tar Heel team of walking wounded pulled out one kate victory after another. I was a freshman and it was glorious. Marquette won 67-59.

In 1978-79 UNC was picked to finish as low as 4th but surprised everyone and tied with Duke at 9-3 for ACC regular season co-champs. The Heels were not even nationally ranked pre-season. Al Wood (sophomore) was the big surprise but Yonakor, O’Koren, Colescott, Budko, and Bradley stepped up. (This season a freshman led Michigant State (Magic Johnson) came into Carmichael and fell to Carolina...in a game in which the Tar Heels used the Four Corners to perfection -- I remember an Al Wood dunk over Johnson to finish a round of Four Corners offense that raised the roof)

At time of the game, the previous year’s NCAA runners-up Duke was ranked #6. Duke = Gminski, Sparnarkel, Banks, Dennard, Bender, and Vince Taylor. They had started the season as consensus #1 after being NCAA runner-up the year before. The game before UNC traveled to Cameron, Clemson had lured Duke out of their zone and into man and had come away with a home upset.

This narrative should add to the discussion prompted by Bigs23’s question: “Which games did Dean use the 4 corners because he didn’t think his team could compete?”

By the way, UNC and dook played four times that year (1978-79) and were 2-2 with the Blue Devils winning in the Big Four preseason tournament, Carolina taking a win in Carmichael, the dook win 40-47 in the Tool Box, and a final UNC win in the ACC Tournament.

@nycfan

@Bigs23

@maxcrowder
 
Last edited:
Batt Boy said:
She has many hurtful tropes throughout the series. House Elves, Fenrir Greyback, even the whole "Houses" part of Hogwarts. But most glaring is the Goblins having log noses and being very clever with money.
Click to expand...
I have never read the Harry Potter books and had not seen any of the movies until recently. My wife was a big fan of both the books and the movies, and she recently got our kids into the books. After they finish each book, we all watch the movie based on that book (they’ve finished the first two thus far). When we watched the first movie and were introduced to the banker goblins, I couldn’t believe it. It was so blatant. And my wife is Jewish … and also a banker.
 
sringwal said:
Where do you think the term House Elf came from?
Click to expand...
I can see the unfortunate “house elf” origin. (I have never read the Harry Potter books and just recently watched the first two movies with my kids, so I never would have made the “house elf” and “house dookie” connection.) But I always took the “house dookie” reference to be like a restaurant referring to something as its “house wine” or “house dressing,” etc. But I guess I might have been clueless.
 
sringwal said:
Where do you think the term House Elf came from?
Click to expand...
oh, I get it... that's why I mentioned "did J.K. Rowling come up with the term for her books based on old Slavery terminology from the American South in the 1800's?" I answered my own question I guess...
Now that others have mentioned the other tropes... and the fact that Rowling "came out" as being a homophobic/transphobic - it all makes sense. She's a shit head with a vivid imagination who happened to make a ton of money writing fantasy books.
Will agree: the term "house" should not apply.
I guess we can refer to Max as simply "THE dookie"
 
donbosco said:
IMG_5090.jpeg


The first reference I can find to “four corners” and Dean Smith is in the December 19, 1965 ‘News and Observer.” The article starts off, “Carolina’s Tar Heels used quickness and a pesky pressing defense to overcome Florida’s distinct height advantage for a 66-59 basketball victory over the Gators here Saturday night.” Norm Sloan was the FLA coach. The win made UNC 5-2. Mention is made that Carolina led the country in Field Goal percentage but that night ‘only’ shot 49.1%. The article concludes, “Once the Tar Heels manufactured their working margin at the end, they made good use of their four corners offense, designed to spread out the taller Gators and thus neutralize their height.” (It does seem to be used quite familiarly here - as if it was already part of the vernacular in something other than newspaper reporting which leads me to imagine that Coach Smith had used it before and even provided the name to reporters)

Twelve days later Carolina deployed the Four Corners in a 90-85 win over Utah. This was in the “Triangle Doubleheader” played in Raleigh, a short-lived effort to revive the Dixie Classic.

Regarding Coach Smith’s decisions to go to the Four Corners Offense. This from ‘A Coach’s Life: Coach’s first mention there is associated with that same 1965-66 season. This was the year after Billy Cunningham graduated and The L&M Boys were the designated stars. Coach decided to return to 4C against nationally ranked #2 Duke in the ACC Tournament. Carolina was 16-10 (8-6) and tied for third in the regular season. Duke lost in the Final Four semi to Kentucky (who would go on to lose to UTEP in an historic final). [The Blue Devil stars were Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Steve Vacendak, and Mike Lewis…Bubas coached]

Duke played a zone. “I decided our best chance to control the pace of the game was to go to the Four Corners and make them come out to chase us in man or zone press defense.” P. 81. Bubas didn’t. It was 5-7 at the half. Duke won 21-20. It would have been a major upset.

The next memorable deployment of the Four Corners offense was in the 1968 NCAA Championship vs UCLA and Lew Alcindor. “I decided our best chance to win would be to shorten the game. I’m sure it wasn’t a popular decision among our confident players, but it was still our best chance to win against a truly great UCLA team.” P. 109, ‘ACL’ (Tar Heel stars were Scott, Miller, Clark, Bunting, and Grubar)

Coach Smith abandoned the Four Corners in the second half (down by 7 at half, final 78-55, Alcindor 34).

In the 1976-77 NCAA Finals Coach again turned to the 4C against a big, talented team — that played zone defense, Marquette. It was 43-43 with 14 minutes to go when Coach held up four fingers. It is a sad ending to a miracle run that included a string of near riots on Franklin Street after a Tar Heel team of walking wounded pulled out one kate victory after another. I was a freshman and it was glorious. Marquette won 67-59.

In 1978-79 UNC was picked to finish as low as 4th but surprised everyone and tied with Duke at 9-3 for ACC regular season. The Heels were not even nationally ranked pre-season. Al Wood (sophomore) was the big surprise but Yonakor, O’Koren, Colescott, Budko, and Bradley stepped up.

At time of the game, the previous year’s NCAA runners-up Duke was ranked #6. Duke = Gminski, Sparnarkel, Banks, Dennard, Bender, Vince Taylor. They had started the season as consensus #1 after NCAA runner-up year before. The game before UNC traveled to Cameron Clemson had lured Duke out of their zone and into man and had upset them.

This narrative should add to the discussion prompted by Bigs23’s question: “Which games did Dean use the 4 corners because he didn’t think his team could compete?”

By the way, UNC and dook played four times that year and were 2-2 with the Blue Devils winning in the Big Four preseason tournament, Carolina taking a win in Carmichael, the dook win 40-47 in the Tool Box, and a final UNC win in the ACC Tournament.
Click to expand...
Excellent research - and well presented. Thanks.
 
In Mary Norton's 1952 children's book The Borrowers, she refers to House Borrowers in contrast to Field Borrowers. There is a certain amount of subtle imperialism built in to this book (there is a child who has come home from colonized India but I admit to not having caught any of that as a child.

The Wizard of Oz is also a fairly problematic children's book as Baum was a huge hater of American Indians and intended the Flying Monkeys to embody them. When the monkeys take flight after Dorothy was the most terrifying part of the film for me to be sure. I read the book to my daughter when she was a child and had to literally censor some of the horrifying scenes -- it was, after all, a bedtime story. I didn't remember that from my own childhood read.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top