UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

[SnoopRob]

I'm objecting to folks who a pointing to Hubert's on the court coaching as the problem. I think that is largely missing the point. Yes, there seems to be a team chemistry issue, but that's more a symptom than a root cause. The team "engine" isn't firing on all cylinders, but that's precisely because it is missing a few critical parts.

I think Hubert's coaching is a part of the overall problem we face.

I think Hubert's a decent coach and I'm not saying he has no clue what he's doing. But I don't think he has shown the ability to be flexible enough with his coaching decisions enough of the time that he's putting the team in a good chance to succeed.

I think his offense, while not amazing like Roy's, does create open shots a decent percentage of the time. The problems are (a) that the open shots it creates are often created for players who aren't likely to maximize the effectiveness of that open look and (b) when it doesn't create an open look, there seems to be no "plan b" for that possession and we end up just pounding the leather off the ball. In terms of (a), HD's offense fairly often creates an open 3 from the corner, the problem is that it's often Drake Powell or Jae'Lyn Withers or another player you don't necessarily want taking a 3 who has the shot and so while the shot is open, it's not from a player likely to make it consistently. In terms of (b), when the structured play breaks down, we seem to not be ready with a counter to the defense and so we end up dribbling a lot and then putting up a less than great shot.

I think his defense works in a way that could be effective, but, unfortunately, not with the players we have on this team. We switch pretty much everything and that allows the other team to essentially "pick" a match up they want to see and then run a play leading to a switch that creates a mismatch in their favor. We do sometimes try other defensive options, but not regularly and not for significant periods of time.

So while I think there are likely a variety of issues that lead this team to where we find it, HD's coaching is one piece of the puzzle and I don't see any significant improvement in that area over his tenure as HC.

 

[Ddseddse]

I think Hubert's coaching is a part of the overall problem we face.

I think Hubert's a decent coach and I'm not saying he has no clue what he's doing. But I don't think he has shown the ability to be flexible enough with his coaching decisions enough of the time that he's putting the team in a good chance to succeed.

I think his offense, while not amazing like Roy's, does create open shots a decent percentage of the time. The problems are (a) that the open shots it creates are often created for players who aren't likely to maximize the effectiveness of that open look and (b) when it doesn't create an open look, there seems to be no "plan b" for that possession and we end up just pounding the leather off the ball. In terms of (a), HD's offense fairly often creates an open 3 from the corner, the problem is that it's often Drake Powell or Jae'Lyn Withers or another player you don't necessarily want taking a 3 who has the shot and so while the shot is open, it's not from a player likely to make it consistently. In terms of (b), when the structured play breaks down, we seem to not be ready with a counter to the defense and so we end up dribbling a lot and then putting up a less than great shot.

I think his defense works in a way that could be effective, but, unfortunately, not with the players we have on this team. We switch pretty much everything and that allows the other team to essentially "pick" a match up they want to see and then run a play leading to a switch that creates a mismatch in their favor. We do sometimes try other defensive options, but not regularly and not for significant periods of time.

So while I think there are likely a variety of issues that lead this team to where we find it, HD's coaching is one piece of the puzzle and I don't see any significant improvement in that area over his tenure as HC.

Not sure we aren't both addressing different sides of the same coin. The open 3 in the corner should be going to the missing stretch 4, for example.

I mean you can argue that coach Davis should be better able to adapt his offence to the pieces he has, and to an extent that's true, but if you are missing pieces to pound it inside, and you're missing pieces to stretch the floor, that's a big ask. What exactly do you want him to do? At some point in time it becomes more about what you're missing, and less about what you have.

 

[farce©]

I find Roy’s opinion more interesting than just about anyone else’s.

I'm sure you realize Roy is hardly a disinterested impartial observer. He hand-picked Hubert for this job and made sure his choice was implemented. Roy would be admitting a big mistake while making Hubert look bad if he said anything other than what he said. Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

 

[TarSpiel]

I'm sure you realize Roy is hardly a disinterested impartial observer. He hand-picked Hubert for this job and made sure his choice was implemented. Roy would be admitting a big mistake while making Hubert look bad if he said anything other than what he said. Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

I don't think Roy's trying to cover his ass or anything, I think he genuinely believes in Coach Davis.

The amount of shit that's getting thrown at Roy for supporting Coach Davis is amazing. Sports really does bring out the very worst in people.

 

[finesse]

I still feel like we should wait a year. I'd like to see what happens under the new scheme. This year was basically lost in the portal. No big man and Tyson has to be one of the major disappointments coming out of the portal. Another knockdown three point shooter would have taken a lot of pressure off of RJ.

Some of this is loyalty to the family aspect and part of it is a real hesitancy to revamp the program so completely during a time where we really don't know where college basketball is going. I don't see this portal thing staying this wide open.

 

[farce©]

I don't think Roy's trying to cover his ass or anything, I think he genuinely believes in Coach Davis.

The amount of shit that's getting thrown at Roy for supporting Coach Davis is amazing. Sports really does bring out the very worst in people.

I don't doubt Roy genuinely believes in Coach Davis. But I also think it is impossible for Roy to be a clear-eyed realist given his involvement in the situation up to this point.

 

[SnoopRob]

Not sure we aren't both addressing different sides of the same coin. The open 3 in the corner should be going to the missing stretch 4, for example.

I mean you can argue that coach Davis should be better able to adapt his offence to the pieces he has, and to an extent that's true, but if you are missing pieces to pound it inside, and you're missing pieces to stretch the floor, that's a big ask. What exactly do you want him to do? At some point in time it becomes more about what you're missing, and less about what you have.

The entire argument regarding coaching is that HD should have adapted the offense (and defense) to better fit the players he has.

If he can't adapt his offense to the players he has, then he puts a tremendous burden on himself to always get exactly what he needs from recruiting (HS and/or portal), which is a recipe for the kinds of seasons we've seen under HD...good when the players work (and the right players are played) to fit the system and bad when the players don't work to fit the system.

One of my issues with HD is that a good coach should have the ability to take the talent (imperfect as it may be) on the 2023 and 2025 teams to the NCAAT. Far less talented teams than either of those squads will be in the NCAAT for those years. I'm not saying that we should be a 1 or 2 seed in those seasons, but there is no reason a good coach shouldn't have those teams at least a fringe top 25 squad and safely in the NCAAT. The fact that Hubert can't adapt his coaching schemes enough to do so is one reason why I think we should be at the point of moving on to a new HC & staff.

 

[duluoz]

Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

Neither does it make it less valid, unless someone is willing to question Roy’s integrity.

I will never do that, and as much as he has a personal vested interest in HD’s success due to their relationship and his hand in the decision, he also has an interest in the program’s success far beyond that of anyone on this board. And he also has an understanding of the current climate and recruiting landscape, the inner workings of the program and team, and how Hubert Davis fits into all of that… far beyond that of anyone on this board.

Just because Roy resisted and ultimately rejected the current landscape doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand how it works. And he knows HD and the program and the ways all of that might evolve better than anyone alive. Certainly better than anyone bitching and moaning here. His vantage point is not narrower than ours, it’s far, far broader.

So sure, you could argue he’s blinded by passion and you all are seeing something that he’s failing or unwilling to see. But it could also mean he’s seeing something down the road that you all are failing to see, and hasty shortsightedness is the last thing needed. Because it IS hasty, make no mistake — the Heels were a #1 seed that got edged out in the Sweet 16 barely a year ago.

To all those who think it’s the former and you know better, I’d suggest some humility and deference to Roy. Instead of “poor old guy’s just lost touch and trying to save face…” But personally I think it’s the latter, and once HD gets his sea legs for roster construction (as ALL coaches are still trying to do, some with more luck than others) then things will smooth out and get back into the consistency everyone’s used to.

Especially when the best answer anyone has for who his replacement should be is “a top coach.” Fuck does that mean anymore? Nobody knows yet. You want Dan Hurley or Jon Scheyer? I sure as hell don’t. They couldn’t do a damn thing different with the current roster. Jay Wright? The guy who got out for the same reasons Roy did? He saw the coming landscape and preferred to hang out in the studio and with his family. So who then?? Who is this mythical coach who “is worthy of an upper echelon job like UNC” as you all like to regurgitate, as though HD isn’t “worthy.” It’s largely a bunch of bullshit entitlement and impatience. And Roy would tell you the same without the curse word.

 

[TarSpiel]

I don't doubt Roy genuinely believes in Coach Davis. But I also think it is impossible for Roy to be a clear-eyed realist given his involvement in the situation up to this point.

Yea, well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander...you think any of our fans are able to be "clear-eyed realists"?

 

[Bigs23]

I'm sure you realize Roy is hardly a disinterested impartial observer. He hand-picked Hubert for this job and made sure his choice was implemented. Roy would be admitting a big mistake while making Hubert look bad if he said anything other than what he said. Roy's finger prints are all over this situation. So you may find Roy's take more interesting but that doesn't make it more valid.

Of course. I still find his opinion far more interesting than most others.

 

[TarSpiel]

I've got some things that seem off to me, and places where Coach Davis seems to come in for some valid criticism.

But I'm also aware that there is a *ton* of relevant information I don't have access to. The behind the scenes moves in the portal last summer, how the staff was evaluating JWash, the role of NIL in recruiting against other teams, especially the SEC, how any of our players have practiced, issues of team chemistry, etc. There is so much relevant information that I know I don't know that it makes it very difficult to be so cocksure of my opinions on these issues.

This is clearly not a problem for most of the toxic blowhards in the IC community and in a large part of the Carolina fanbase. They think they know what they don't know, and this makes them think they're a lot smarter than they actually are. Could we have run better schemes given our roster? Probably. Do I know what those are? Nope. I did like the look of our team with JWit at the 4 against Syracuse, but then again it's JWit. I understand the logic of trying to get Powell big minutes at the 4, and having RJ & Ellott on the floor at the same time, and balancing Ian's offense vs. defense. It's hard for me to see what would automatically be a clear answer to any of our problems. The major problem to me is our roster construction, and there was an excellent article recently on IC detailing our pursuit of bigs last summer.

If I could offer one criticism to Coach Davis, I'd say that it seems to me the rotations have been so inconsistent that I wonder if it affects team chemistry on the floor at game time. That's one area that for me, at least from the rafters, looks like something that has a lot of downstream implications. But again, if you're going to cut the rotation to 7 or 8, who loses minutes? That's a tough call. Whoever loses those minutes is likely out the door the day the portal opens.

I'm sure there are a number of valid criticisms of Coach Davis, and a number of them I would on their face be sympathetic to. But this lynch mob is just ridiculous, and more than a couple of them have been calling for Coach Davis' head since the day he was hired. People act like if you just bring in Coach X he'll automatically restore us to where we have been, but this new magic coach is also going to have to deal with brand new issues like yearly roster construction, discipling players who can just leave, players comparing paychecks to themselves and to other players around the country, players getting paid and losing focus, etc.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I've got some things that seem off to me, and places where Coach Davis seems to come in for some valid criticism.

But I'm also aware that there is a *ton* of relevant information I don't have access to. The behind the scenes moves in the portal last summer, how the staff was evaluating JWash, the role of NIL in recruiting against other teams, especially the SEC, how any of our players have practiced, issues of team chemistry, etc. There is so much relevant information that I know I don't know that it makes it very difficult to be so cocksure of my opinions on these issues.

This is clearly not a problem for most of the toxic blowhards in the IC community. They think they know what they don't know, and this makes them think they're a lot smarter than they actually are. Could we have run better schemes given our roster? Probably. Do I know what those are? Nope. I did like the look of our team with JWit at the 4 against Syracuse, but then again it's JWit. I understand the logic of trying to get Powell big minutes at the 4, and having RJ & Ellott on the floor at the same time, and balancing Ian's offense vs. defense. It's hard for me to see what would automatically be a clear answer to any of our problems.

If I could offer one criticism to Coach Davis, I'd say that it seems to me the rotations have been so inconsistent that I wonder if it affects team chemistry on the floor at game time. That's one area that for me, at least from the rafters, looks like something that has a lot of downstream implications. But again, if you're going to cut the rotation to 7 or 8, who loses minutes? That's a tough call.

I'm sure there are a number of valid criticisms of Coach Davis, and a number of them I would on their face be sympathetic to. But this lynch mob is just ridiculous. People act like if you just bring in Coach X he'll automatically restore us to where we have been, but this new magic coach is also going to have to deal with brand new issues like yearly roster construction, discipling players who can just leave, players comparing paychecks to themselves and to other players around the country, etc.

I don't think anyone is saying that things will definitely become better with a new coach. Things could, they could also get worse, or even stay the same. What some of us are saying is that HD/staff are not performing their duties at the standard that UNC basketball should be. Worrying about if a new staff will succeed should not be reason to continue with the current staff, given the current staff are not succeeding. You cut ties with with the staff who are not succeeding and you set out to find a staff that you think will - while doing enough vetting to give you a high(ish) level of confidence that you new hire will succeed.

I do understand your last paragraph and the points in it. It's definitely a hard job, for sure. However, that job is being done far better than this staff by many staffs around the country - those issues are not any worse at UNC than at other places.

 

[TarSpiel]

However, that job is being done far better than this staff by many staffs around the country - those issues are not any worse at UNC than at other places.

True, but it's a clue that the SEC is kicking almost everyone's butt...I just can't believe that their NIL war chests have had nothing to do with it.

Coach Davis will need to make adjustments doing forward, and so will the people who sign our players' paychecks. I think it's just way too early to make a final decision on Coach Davis, especially since he has shown signs of being able to succeed at a very high level. It's been a really tough year, but we're less than a year away from a JWit brain fart that kept us from being back in the Elite Eight. Again. Against Clemson.

 

[TarSpiel]

True, but it's a clue that the SEC is kicking almost everyone's butt...I just can't believe that their NIL war chests have had nothing to do with it.

Coach Davis will need to make adjustments doing forward, and so will the people who sign our players' paychecks. I think it's just way too early to make a final decision on Coach Davis, especially since he has shown signs of being able to succeed at a very high level. It's been a really tough year, but we're less than a year away from a JWit brain fart that kept us from being back in the Elite Eight. Again. Playing against Clemson for another Final Four.

 

[Bigs23]

Neither does it make it less valid, unless someone is willing to question Roy’s integrity.

I will never do that, and as much as he has a personal vested interest in HD’s success due to their relationship and his hand in the decision, he also has an interest in the program’s success far beyond that of anyone on this board. And he also has an understanding of the current climate and recruiting landscape, the inner workings of the program and team, and how Hubert Davis fits into all of that… far beyond that of anyone on this board.

Just because Roy resisted and ultimately rejected the current landscape doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand how it works. And he knows HD and the program and the ways all of that might evolve better than anyone alive. Certainly better than anyone bitching and moaning here. His vantage point is not narrower than ours, it’s far, far broader.

So sure, you could argue he’s blinded by passion and you all are seeing something that he’s failing or unwilling to see. But it could also mean he’s seeing something down the road that you all are failing to see, and hasty shortsightedness is the last thing needed. Because it IS hasty, make no mistake — the Heels were a #1 seed that got edged out in the Sweet 16 barely a year ago.

To all those who think it’s the former and you know better, I’d suggest some humility and deference to Roy. Instead of “poor old guy’s just lost touch and trying to save face…” But personally I think it’s the latter, and once HD gets his sea legs for roster construction (as ALL coaches are still trying to do, some with more luck than others) then things will smooth out and get back into the consistency everyone’s used to.

Especially when the best answer anyone has for who his replacement should be is “a top coach.” Fuck does that mean anymore? Nobody knows yet. You want Dan Hurley or Jon Scheyer? I sure as hell don’t. They couldn’t do a damn thing different with the current roster. Jay Wright? The guy who got out for the same reasons Roy did? He saw the coming landscape and preferred to hang out in the studio and with his family. So who then?? Who is this mythical coach who “is worthy of an upper echelon job like UNC” as you all like to regurgitate, as though HD isn’t “worthy.” It’s largely a bunch of bullshit entitlement and impatience. And Roy would tell you the same without the curse word.

The number of non-qualified people who believe they understand UNC basketball better than Roy Williams is astounding.

 

[mpaer]

We definitely need a Big war chest to maintain our Blue Blood status

 

[SmilingJack]

We definitely need a Big war chest to maintain our Blue Blood status

Seriously if we can spend 50 million on a old ass retired NFL coach we need to get HD no less than $Million> plus per player so we won't miss out on the players we'll need. I can't recall not having a big man on the team. Hell even Warren Martin and other bigs were better than nobody.

 

[SnoopRob]

I can't recall not having a big man on the team. Hell even Warren Martin and other bigs were better than nobody.

We have bigs on the team…

Jae’Lyn Withers
Jalen Washington
James Brown
Ven-Allen Lubin
Ty Claude

…are all bigs.

What do you think we’re missing (outside of skills that mesh with our schemes)?

 

[finesse]

A leader on court and a shooting touch.

 

[stankeylegjones]

True, but it's a clue that the SEC is kicking almost everyone's butt...I just can't believe that their NIL war chests have had nothing to do with it.

Coach Davis will need to make adjustments doing forward, and so will the people who sign our players' paychecks. I think it's just way too early to make a final decision on Coach Davis, especially since he has shown signs of being able to succeed at a very high level. It's been a really tough year, but we're less than a year away from a JWit brain fart that kept us from being back in the Elite Eight. Again. Against Clemson.

The NIL funding is a valid point, imo. However there have been reports on IC that lack of NIL is not the main reason for striking out on players (in some cases, UNC actually big higher than the team that got the player). It's also not my reasoning for why I think HD/staff are not ready to lead UNC basketball, yet. Looking at the sets, on both ends, lack of forming to match their players' skill sets, lineups, philosophies, and many more reasons that have been on full display this year is why I don't think they're ready.