Where do we go from here?

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I’m not interested in rehashing to arguments in your last paragraph.

People do need to be more precise in their critiques. I’m talking about the narrow band of people, and it is a narrow band, who have controlled Democratic messaging and campaigns for the last 20 some odd years. A consultant class of, mostly white, college educated liberals who live and work in D.C. I think the people that get offended by critiques of this group tell on themselves.

Your second paragraph speaks to the entire point I’ve tried to make. The working class is a large, disparate group of people. You bind this group together by pushing forward policies that will help all of them, like Medicare for All. Universality is the key.
It's good to know that when you use the terms "liberals" or "elites" you are referring to "the narrow band of people, and it is a narrow band, who have controlled Democratic messaging and campaigns for the last 20 some odd years. A consultant class of, mostly white, college educated liberals who live and work in D.C." But that is very clearly not how those terms are understood or meant by most of the people who use them, in the media or otherwise. And I will note that my first post in this conversation was not referring to critiques of "liberals" made by you specifically, but of those critiques made generally in the media and elsewhere. And I do not read those critiques as being limited only to the people who "control Democratic messaging and campaigns."
 
I can't help it. You can flesh this out as you will but if there's not a good chance you might get your hands dirty, tear up your clothes or bleed a little bit (about every day for me) then the people that do won't consider you working class.
 
It's good to know that when you use the terms "liberals" or "elites" you are referring to "the narrow band of people, and it is a narrow band, who have controlled Democratic messaging and campaigns for the last 20 some odd years. A consultant class of, mostly white, college educated liberals who live and work in D.C." But that is very clearly not how those terms are understood or meant by most of the people who use them, in the media or otherwise. And I will note that my first post in this conversation was not referring to critiques of "liberals" made by you specifically, but of those critiques made generally in the media and elsewhere. And I do not read those critiques as being limited only to the people who "control Democratic messaging and campaigns."
Of course. I agree with you that a lot of working class white guys (and non working class, as we’ve pointed out) throw out liberal elite as a slur that means a lot of different things. What they really mean comes out when the door is closed.

I don’t really care to reach those people. They’ve voted for Republicans since at least 1968.

There is a legitimate anger at the system though. It comes from people like those mentioned above, but also from people that are more amenable to Democratic policy solutions. Seems like a political anger that Democrats could capture with the right message. 2024 and 2016 show us that Republicans will capture the anger if Democrats don’t.
 
I’m talking specifically about working class Latinos. Men and women. They moved away from Democrats in 2024. As did Black men to a lesser degree.

I’ve listened to and read countless interviews with working class voters who voted for Democrats in the past but Trump in 2024. The underlying piece of it all is economic issues. Again, I don’t really care to rehash the argument about this again because I’m made my points and people here can take them or leave them.
OK so how do we message to those people on economic issues? I really don't think the answer is policy messaging, like Medicare 4 All, which many people probably don't even really see as being about the economy at all (though they should). The most persuasive critique I've heard is that Trump has done a better job connecting emotionally with those working-class voters (Latino or otherwise) than Democrats. Because as many have pointed out, it's not like Trump was offering any generally applicable economic relief policies for the country; just niche (idiotic) things like "no taxes on tips" and claiming that he could reduce everyone's tax burden by increasing tariffs. So I'm not convinced that policy messaging is the answer at all; it's more about emotional appeals and emotional connection.
 
OK so how do we message to those people on economic issues? I really don't think the answer is policy messaging, like Medicare 4 All, which many people probably don't even really see as being about the economy at all (though they should). The most persuasive critique I've heard is that Trump has done a better job connecting emotionally with those working-class voters (Latino or otherwise) than Democrats. Because as many have pointed out, it's not like Trump was offering any generally applicable economic relief policies for the country; just niche (idiotic) things like "no taxes on tips" and claiming that he could reduce everyone's tax burden by increasing tariffs. So I'm not convinced that policy messaging is the answer at all; it's more about emotional appeals and emotional connection.
Yes, I agree with that. I think Medicare for All kills two birds with one stone. It is an emotional appeal and a policy appeal. Democrats have only focused on the policy without the emotion for a long time.
 
Of course. I agree with you that a lot of working class white guys (and non working class, as we’ve pointed out) throw out liberal elite as a slur that means a lot of different things. What they really mean comes out when the door is closed.

I don’t really care to reach those people. They’ve voted for Republicans since at least 1968.

There is a legitimate anger at the system though. It comes from people like those mentioned above, but also from people that are more amenable to Democratic policy solutions. Seems like a political anger that Democrats could capture with the right message. 2024 and 2016 show us that Republicans will capture the anger if Democrats don’t.
I agree with the last part, but the problem is that the main strategy that Republicans have used to "capture the anger" is simply to lie. Lie about what the cause of the problem is (immigrants, government spending) and lie about what the solutions are. Tell people it's someone else's fault, tell them you will punish the people who are to blame. To risk the great cringe-factor of quoting Aaron Sorkin, I still think this speech from the "American President" captures it the best:

"Whatever your particular problem is, I promise you Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle age, middle class, middle income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family, and American values and character, and you wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism. You tell them she's to blame for their lot in life."

Substitute "illegal immigration" for "President's girlfriend" - and of course ditch anything about "character" which clearly is no longer even close to important - and you basically have the Trump campaign there. It is basically further proof that it's easier to win elections with lies than truth. If people are hurting, they will instinctively look for someone and something to blame. Is there a way to win over those peoples' anger without lying to them and telling them there's some easy solution, some easy scapegoat, for their pain and disaffection?
 
It could be Orangeturds best messaging was
"This nation is going to hell-it's becoming a Sh$%hole country. I wil bring change"
It resonated with folks trying to buy a house, racists , farmers, folks whose marriage wasn't great , all kinds of people who hear about Woke. 49% of the people were convinced things are getting bad-for many different reasons most of which were as emotional as "factual"
 
I agree with the last part, but the problem is that the main strategy that Republicans have used to "capture the anger" is simply to lie. Lie about what the cause of the problem is (immigrants, government spending) and lie about what the solutions are. Tell people it's someone else's fault, tell them you will punish the people who are to blame. To risk the great cringe-factor of quoting Aaron Sorkin, I still think this speech from the "American President" captures it the best:

"Whatever your particular problem is, I promise you Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle age, middle class, middle income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family, and American values and character, and you wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism. You tell them she's to blame for their lot in life."

Substitute "illegal immigration" for "President's girlfriend" - and of course ditch anything about "character" which clearly is no longer even close to important - and you basically have the Trump campaign there. It is basically further proof that it's easier to win elections with lies than truth. If people are hurting, they will instinctively look for someone and something to blame. Is there a way to win over those peoples' anger without lying to them and telling them there's some easy solution, some easy scapegoat, for their pain and disaffection?
I think Democrats have to acknowledge that campaigning and governing are two different things.

Democrats have been reticent to point out the root cause of a number of issues due to how our campaign finance system is structured. When healthcare is an issue for so many people, you have to offer something to blame and direct anger at.

Republicans will offer illegals immigrants as the issue or whatever. Democrats rarely point out that the root of the problem is a for-profit health insurance system. Even though the vast majority of Democrats support Medicare for All, very few Democratic pols run on it. Blame should be placed on health insurance companies. It should be placed on pharma. These industries have destroyed the lives of Americans.

Democrats are scared to criticize and take on corporate power.
 
I tend to agree with super that all politics are identity politics now. Identity politics haven’t failed, more so that Democrats have wrapped themselves in the wrong identities. Identities that many people across the country see as counter to their own.

That is, being working class (or someone who works for a living, however you want to phrase it) is an identity in and of itself. It is an extremely powerful identity and one that unites people across racial and gender lines. We’ve seen this work throughout American history in other political movements.
1. Right on, brother. Now we're talking. I'd suggest that we find a better term than "wrong identity" but conceptually you're right. This is why all the trans messaging is effective, even though it affects peoples' lives not at all. It's about identity, and yes, Dems have become seen as champions of identities other than working class (especially white working class). I would disagree that Dems "wrapped themselves" in this state of affairs.

Daniel Bell's "Cultural Contradictions Of Capitalism", published in the early 70s, was one of the first books to recognize the consequences of religion and traditionalism among the working classes. Class struggle had been disrupted, argued Bell, by the inability of American workers to establish solidarity because of racial divisions. The supposed vanguard of the new society was actually conservative and mostly wanted to live where black people didn't.

Add gender and sexuality into that mix and we have today's situation. This wasn't something that "liberals" or "neoliberals" or "Democrats" did, except in the sense that liberals have emphasized racial and social tolerance and inclusion for generations. The right was working to split minorities and labor, and AM talk radio was their secret weapon. It's really hard to do justice for groups that don't like each other, or at least when one group doesn't like the other group.

To the extent that Democrats fucked up, it was in not taking Rush Limbaugh seriously. And the reason they didn't take him seriously was that he seemed so stuck in the past. Video was the new thing. AM was an ancient, outmoded technology. Rush was just some backwater hick from Missouri (which he was). But what Dems didn't realize was the power of the delivery truck radio, so to speak. Radios in workplaces created a captive audience, and it was thus that the modern, toxic "white working class" conservative political identity was born.

2. You're right that working class is an identity and that's what is fueling Trumpism. It's a powerful identity. But it's also a culturally conservative one -- especially when it comes to gender and sexuality issues, to say nothing of race (an ancient divide-and-conquer strategy that remains potent today). So it's a real challenge to bring that identity within our tent.

This is why I've been favoring religion-based appeals. "Christian" (or any religious identity) is as powerful an identity as working-class and in many ways, more so. And I think it's more promising because it's expressly universalist. The problem with class politics is that they are inherently, by definition, divisive. If you go back to Marx, the "struggle" part of "class struggle" has always been necessary and foundational. In a simple economy and a simple society, that might not be bad, where the heroes and villains are clearly identifiable. But it has proven untenable for liberals to tell workers, "we are organized against those people as our enemies" without creating a conceptual permission structure for them to see other people -- i.e. black people, gay people, etc. -- as villains in somewhat different stories. We basically want class politics to divide people in a certain way and it just doesn't work like that.

Last week we were talking about the need for a new villain, and here too Christianity helps because Christianity has always employed the language of battling against sin rather than sinners. I know, hating the sin and loving the sinner is mostly bullshit, but I'm talking about the language and rhetoric. It's sort of weird for a union leader to stand up and say, "our enemy is cruelty and the hardening of hearts," but those ideas have been emanating from the pulpit for generations.

Our new enemies should be Divisiveness, Cruelty, and Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy, after all, has long been a religious concept. I've argued that MAGA world has a different view of hypocrisy than educated liberals. We see hypocrisy in terms of vice; it signals inauthenticity, inconsistency and lack of intellectual rigor. They see hypocrisy in terms of privilege, which has a sound basis in sociology, and want it. So we need to get back to the religious meaning of the term and attack that mindset that MAGA has so readily adopted about rules for thee. Jesus actually talked a fair bit about hypocrisy, right?
 
I can't help it. You can flesh this out as you will but if there's not a good chance you might get your hands dirty, tear up your clothes or bleed a little bit (about every day for me) then the people that do won't consider you working class.
Right.
 
1. Right on, brother. Now we're talking. I'd suggest that we find a better term than "wrong identity" but conceptually you're right. This is why all the trans messaging is effective, even though it affects peoples' lives not at all. It's about identity, and yes, Dems have become seen as champions of identities other than working class (especially white working class). I would disagree that Dems "wrapped themselves" in this state of affairs.

Daniel Bell's "Cultural Contradictions Of Capitalism", published in the early 70s, was one of the first books to recognize the consequences of religion and traditionalism among the working classes. Class struggle had been disrupted, argued Bell, by the inability of American workers to establish solidarity because of racial divisions. The supposed vanguard of the new society was actually conservative and mostly wanted to live where black people didn't.

Add gender and sexuality into that mix and we have today's situation. This wasn't something that "liberals" or "neoliberals" or "Democrats" did, except in the sense that liberals have emphasized racial and social tolerance and inclusion for generations. The right was working to split minorities and labor, and AM talk radio was their secret weapon. It's really hard to do justice for groups that don't like each other, or at least when one group doesn't like the other group.

To the extent that Democrats fucked up, it was in not taking Rush Limbaugh seriously. And the reason they didn't take him seriously was that he seemed so stuck in the past. Video was the new thing. AM was an ancient, outmoded technology. Rush was just some backwater hick from Missouri (which he was). But what Dems didn't realize was the power of the delivery truck radio, so to speak. Radios in workplaces created a captive audience, and it was thus that the modern, toxic "white working class" conservative political identity was born.

2. You're right that working class is an identity and that's what is fueling Trumpism. It's a powerful identity. But it's also a culturally conservative one -- especially when it comes to gender and sexuality issues, to say nothing of race (an ancient divide-and-conquer strategy that remains potent today). So it's a real challenge to bring that identity within our tent.

This is why I've been favoring religion-based appeals. "Christian" (or any religious identity) is as powerful an identity as working-class and in many ways, more so. And I think it's more promising because it's expressly universalist. The problem with class politics is that they are inherently, by definition, divisive. If you go back to Marx, the "struggle" part of "class struggle" has always been necessary and foundational. In a simple economy and a simple society, that might not be bad, where the heroes and villains are clearly identifiable. But it has proven untenable for liberals to tell workers, "we are organized against those people as our enemies" without creating a conceptual permission structure for them to see other people -- i.e. black people, gay people, etc. -- as villains in somewhat different stories. We basically want class politics to divide people in a certain way and it just doesn't work like that.

Last week we were talking about the need for a new villain, and here too Christianity helps because Christianity has always employed the language of battling against sin rather than sinners. I know, hating the sin and loving the sinner is mostly bullshit, but I'm talking about the language and rhetoric. It's sort of weird for a union leader to stand up and say, "our enemy is cruelty and the hardening of hearts," but those ideas have been emanating from the pulpit for generations.

Our new enemies should be Divisiveness, Cruelty, and Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy, after all, has long been a religious concept. I've argued that MAGA world has a different view of hypocrisy than educated liberals. We see hypocrisy in terms of vice; it signals inauthenticity, inconsistency and lack of intellectual rigor. They see hypocrisy in terms of privilege, which has a sound basis in sociology, and want it. So we need to get back to the religious meaning of the term and attack that mindset that MAGA has so readily adopted about rules for thee. Jesus actually talked a fair bit about hypocrisy, right?
I agree with a lot of what you say here, and I don’t think our notions of how Democrats should move forward are wholly in contention. You have pointed out that religion has fueled the most successful protest movements in the United States, and that is true. These movements have also incorporated economic rights as central to their premise.
 
I will continue to oppose intertwining religion and politics. It's a pernicious habit and is a danger to both parts. I want very much, instead, for religion to claim its separate important role in society defending it against false prophets. In a more perfect world, outsiders would be unneeded, unwanted and improper, none of which is true on the right. We don't have and I don't want us as a political party to have any standing in this.
 
I think dems really need to start punching the homeless, foster kids and minorities more. That'll appeal to our target demographic here.
 
Yes, you are working class and should be included in anyone’s definition of what it means to be working class.

Nurses, teachers, all working class. This is what I, and other leftists, mean when we talk about the working class and the Democrats having a problem messaging to them. I guess a lot of liberals think I just mean we have a white working class men in the trades problem when I say “working class.”
Should be, but my education disqualifies me in a lot of peoples eyes.
 
Yes, I agree with that. I think Medicare for All kills two birds with one stone. It is an emotional appeal and a policy appeal. Democrats have only focused on the policy without the emotion for a long time.
Time to turn on old man mode: every generation of young activists in America has had to learn that working class people resist change. We think they should like it. Progress, justice, improving our lives, etc. It makes sense. But in my entire lifetime it has never been true. There are a lot of reasons for that, some good, some not so good, and I'll suggest a couple:

1. Loss of white male privilege. Duh.
2. Uncertainty creates fear. Lots of people have been talking about the difficulties of living paycheck to paycheck. Well, one of the realities is that you try to set up routines to help out. I live a block from my grocery store and I go to the store almost every day. Every Saturday morning there is one group of Latinas who buy like three carts full of groceries. I'm sure they are buying for several households for a whole week. I guess I shouldn't say every Saturday morning because I don't actually know that (I don't go every Saturday morning), but whenever I am there so are they, and I never see them elsewhere.

Change fucks it all up. When things change, you sometimes need to scrap those things that long worked for you. That's annoying. What's more, it's certain. Maybe the change will also carry benefits, but those don't always materialize. They aren't always easy to see when your focus is on next month. That was the political dynamic of Obamacare, and why it was so unpopular even as it was so good for many people.

Now, when things get bad enough, everyone can support change. And that's how Obamacare happened. Health insurance had become such a joke, such a fraud, such an impenetrable hassle that people said, "enough." They voted en masse for new health care.

But now that we have Obamacare, Medicare 4 All is not necessarily palatable. Most people have pretty good insurance now and they can get it if they want it. It's by no means perfect, but the delta from Obamacare to M4A is not that big. Probably not big enough to justify the inherent fear created by changing the whole system. This is why activists don't understand working-class reluctance to embrace causes that would seem to help them. It was certainly true for me and my activist friends.

3. Suspicion that change always screws the working man in the end. This is demonstrably not true, but it's widely felt. And it's a self-defeating message that is commonly broadcast by progressives. It's meant to galvanize solidarity, but the practical effect is to engender cynicism, and cynicism is a huge barrier to solidarity. The message of "the corporate overlords will never let you have nice things, so we need to take them like with M4A" can be heard as "the corporate overlords will never let you have nice things, and that will be true of M4A as well."
 
I will continue to oppose intertwining religion and politics. It's a pernicious habit and is a danger to both parts. I want very much, instead, for religion to claim its separate important role in society defending it against false prophets. In a more perfect world, outsiders would be unneeded, unwanted and improper, none of which is true on the right. We don't have and I don't want us as a political party to have any standing in this.
The Civil Rights Movement was pernicious? The abolitionist movement was pernicious? Independence for India was pernicious.

The vast majority of successful social movements in the modern world have been inflected with religion, with religious appeals at the heart of the messaging. I mean, he was the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr, after all.

And MLK's successor (not direct, of course) is Raphael Warnock, who is a pretty good politician and a guy I'm really happy to have in the Senate. He's great. I think we need more of him. He shouldn't be all of us.
 
Time to turn on old man mode: every generation of young activists in America has had to learn that working class people resist change. We think they should like it. Progress, justice, improving our lives, etc. It makes sense. But in my entire lifetime it has never been true. There are a lot of reasons for that, some good, some not so good, and I'll suggest a couple:

1. Loss of white male privilege. Duh.
2. Uncertainty creates fear. Lots of people have been talking about the difficulties of living paycheck to paycheck. Well, one of the realities is that you try to set up routines to help out. I live a block from my grocery store and I go to the store almost every day. Every Saturday morning there is one group of Latinas who buy like three carts full of groceries. I'm sure they are buying for several households for a whole week. I guess I shouldn't say every Saturday morning because I don't actually know that (I don't go every Saturday morning), but whenever I am there so are they, and I never see them elsewhere.

Change fucks it all up. When things change, you sometimes need to scrap those things that long worked for you. That's annoying. What's more, it's certain. Maybe the change will also carry benefits, but those don't always materialize. They aren't always easy to see when your focus is on next month. That was the political dynamic of Obamacare, and why it was so unpopular even as it was so good for many people.

Now, when things get bad enough, everyone can support change. And that's how Obamacare happened. Health insurance had become such a joke, such a fraud, such an impenetrable hassle that people said, "enough." They voted en masse for new health care.

But now that we have Obamacare, Medicare 4 All is not necessarily palatable. Most people have pretty good insurance now and they can get it if they want it. It's by no means perfect, but the delta from Obamacare to M4A is not that big. Probably not big enough to justify the inherent fear created by changing the whole system. This is why activists don't understand working-class reluctance to embrace causes that would seem to help them. It was certainly true for me and my activist friends.

3. Suspicion that change always screws the working man in the end. This is demonstrably not true, but it's widely felt. And it's a self-defeating message that is commonly broadcast by progressives. It's meant to galvanize solidarity, but the practical effect is to engender cynicism, and cynicism is a huge barrier to solidarity. The message of "the corporate overlords will never let you have nice things, so we need to take them like with M4A" can be heard as "the corporate overlords will never let you have nice things, and that will be true of M4A as well."
I think what you say about uncertainty makes sense in a certain era. I don’t think that dynamic necessarily holds today.
 
I agree with a lot of what you say here, and I don’t think our notions of how Democrats should move forward are wholly in contention. You have pointed out that religion has fueled the most successful protest movements in the United States, and that is true. These movements have also incorporated economic rights as central to their premise.
I would not say "central" and I think that was the key. Economic rights were inherent in the premise, but those were voiced considerably less often and certainly at less volume. That's a balance I'd like to recreate if possible.

As you said, campaigning and governing aren't the same. I think our governing agendas should be focused on economic rights (not exclusively, of course). But class politics just doesn't work as a successful message in American politics for whatever reason. Our campaigns, then, should be more religiously focused. Or if you don't want religion, vague emotional optimism. More focus on getting people enthused about a better society; less focus on specifying what that better society will look like.

The secret to Trump's success, I think, is precisely his inability and refusal to talk about specifics. He lets his audience project their wishes onto him. They make him into Jesus' bff if that's what they want. They make him into a champion of the working class, if that's what they want. He's infinitely malleable, and I'm not talking only about his ample belly. I don't want to be infinitely malleable, but there is a lesson from GOP politics (after all, before Trump, we all complained how vapid W's campaign ideas were): vague promises beat specifics. And indeed, look at how many Trump voters have assumed that Trump's very specific and very carefully described ideas about mass deportations aren't going to happen. They think they are hearing more vague promises.

We always have to remember that the most successful political messaging from our side this century was Obama 08. What was his slogan? "Yes we can." Perfectly non-descript. There was also the "hope" and "Change" artwork -- again, non-descript. I'm not saying we go back to that exactly, but I think "Yes we can" will beat "here's an idea for better health insurance" every time. It shouldn't, but it does.
 
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