Where do we go from here?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 995
  • Views: 25K
  • Politics 
Paine said:
www.thenation.com

How America Invented the Red State

According to conventional wisdom, the last quarter century of elections has proved that most of the country leans conservative. It all started with a map.
www.thenation.com www.thenation.com

Long read but worth it. Something a lot of liberal posters here need to read.
Click to expand...
interesting read. Thanks for sharing!

The change in the USA from a manufacturing economy to a service economy is a huge issue that neither party has appeared to address in any meaningful way.

I recall Obama said something along the lines of 'those manufacturing jobs are not coming back' to the USA, due to globalization.

Are tariffs on China and other 'low cost countries' going to bring back American manufacturing jobs, especially given increasing AI and automation? I'm highly skeptical. The only thing that might bring those jobs back would be for those LCCs to become like the USA, higher-cost countries. But then global capitalists will simple move on to other LCCs, maybe in Africa, or where ever else in the world cheap labor can be found.
 
Last edited:
Bobfripp said:
interesting read. Thanks for sharing!

The change in the USA from a manufacturing economy to a service economy is a huge issue that neither party has appeared to address in any meaningful way.

I recall Obama said something along the lines of 'those manufacturing jobs are not coming back' to the USA, due to globalization.

Are tariffs on China and other 'low cost countries' going to bring back American manufacturing jobs, especially given increasing AI and automation? I'm highly skeptical. The only thing that might bring those jobs back would be for those LCCs to become like the USA, higher-cost countries. But then global capitalists will simple move on to other LCCs, maybe in Africa, or where ever else in the world a cheap labor can be found.
Click to expand...
manufacturing is a great example of people talking out of both sides of their mouths.

They claim to want the manufacturing jobs back, yet they want the really low cost of goods that is a result of manufacturing in countries like China.

I would love to see all of those manufacturing jobs come back. Then watch the outcry when the $5 T shirt from Wal-Mart suddenly cost $30.

I mean they way they got up in arms over eggs going up to $6-8 a dozen, can you imagine when their new iPhone cost $3500?

Due to the cost of living and the wages in the US, there are some manufacturing jobs that it really doesn't make sense to come back.

I don't believe tariffs bring back the manufacturing jobs either. It's not simple, easy, or cheap to open up a manufacturing facility. It's not happening overnight.

And those factors look even more challenging when the manufacturing if of low margin goods and the jobs they produce are naturally low paying.
 
Paine said:
I think the more pertinent question re: manufacturing is not how many of those jobs we can bring back, it’s how do we replace the community bonds that these industrial jobs and their industrial unions created?

The role that unions play(ed) in reinforcing democracy has been severely underrated.
Click to expand...
How would one replace community bonds without the people having what they would consider meaningful employment, such as that provided by manufacturing jobs versus service sector jobs? They already have religion, family, community, but it seems like the so-called working class also need jobs that make them happy/proud/content. Does the service sector provide these jobs?
 
Last edited:
As a 25 year veteran of service industry jobs I’d answer that yes, service jobs can provide that way.
 
Last edited:
finesse said:
What factories that come back are going to be automation heavy and people light.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I read somewhere that more manufacturing jobs have been lost due to automation than to outsourcing. It makes sense - you just don't need many people standing on an assembly line for nearly any product anymore when robots and machines can do the same tasks even better now. And those machines don't need sick leave, vacation time, retirement plans, or anything else other than occasional maintenance and a repair person from time to time. My guess is that even if all of the furniture and textile plants in my old hometown returned they would employ far fewer people than they did even thirty or so years ago. But you can't convince all of the former workers in those closed plants of that, because Trump seems to have convinced them that somehow with his tariffs he's going to magically bring not only their old factories, but all of their old jobs back too.
 
donbosco said:
As a 25 year veteran of service industry jobs I’d answer that yes, service jobs can provide that way.
Click to expand...
So then, for the people that supported Trump, might we assume their issues are not with the type of jobs they have (service vs manufacturing)? Assuming that's the case, is the issue that most concerns them is that they are underpaid?
 
Perhaps - but there are plenty of service jobs that in addition to poor pay are also apparently unnecessarily demeaning. Terrible combo.
 
Some types of service industries can and do provide the kind of environment that leads to community. Places like large hotels and resorts often have core groups who work there for long periods of time. This is also true of airlines as an example. However, so.many services have become individualized like driving for UBER or delivering for Amazon or Doordash. That has no possibility at all of being meaningful for most beyond the pay or tips they receive that day.

Largely one could draw the line at employees versus independent contractors in today's environment. It isnt perfect, but it does serve as a starting point for work with a community versus work without.
 
in today's FAFO headlines:

www.nytimes.com

The Alienation of Jaime Cachua

His friends and family members in Rome, Ga., voted to support mass deportation. Now he’s scrambling to stay in the country.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

anyone have a gift link for this so i can read and laugh at these fucking morons?
 
UNCatTech said:
Quotes like this make no sense to me: “President Trump, he continuously came and he was in the community. While I don’t believe that he’s going to enact policies that will benefit the community, he at least showed that he was willing to show up for the community,” Misner said.

If you don't believe his policies will benefit the community, does it really matter if he stops by?
Click to expand...
yeah, that piece is full of quotes that are just absolutely nonsensical and contradictory.

this country is well and truly fucked.
 
Americans could stand a little more understanding of working to live instead of living to work. Any job can be done well or sloppily and satisfaction isn't all about the money you make.

I would have benefited in a lot of ways if I had worked harder to make more but I don't regret that I never missed any of my kids' activities because that was more important to me.
 
4thgenheel said:
in today's FAFO headlines:

www.nytimes.com

The Alienation of Jaime Cachua

His friends and family members in Rome, Ga., voted to support mass deportation. Now he’s scrambling to stay in the country.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

anyone have a gift link for this so i can read and laugh at these fucking morons?
Click to expand...
I don't have a subscription but I was able to listen to The Daily podcast about it a couple of days ago. Looks like that's behind the paywall now, though.

Here's what you need to know. Kid is brought over from Mexico while young. Grows up in a small Georgia town. Becomes thoroughly Americanized. Becomes a great citizen of this town. Marries a white girl from the town and is a great father. But he's not a US citizen. After the election, his FIL, who loves him dearly, tells him he voted for Trump and can't imagine why his SIL is so worried about possibly being deported. The SIL tells his FIL what Trump said repeatedly in the campaign. FIL says Trump is only going after criminals, not people like his SIL. SIL makes it very clear to FIL that's not what Trump said in the campaign and not what he's been saying in setting up his new administration. FIL doesn't believe him even now.

In the meantime, SIL and his wife visit an immigration lawyer in Atlanta who says SIL is VERY much at risk. But SIL can't afford to do the things that could potentially protect him, and even those things would put him at great risk of being separated from his family. So as of today, they have no idea what to do.

In short, FIL is the callatoroy of this story. When calla says people here have TDS, that's what FIL is basically telling his supposedly beloved SIL.
 
finesse said:
Americans could stand a little more understanding of working to live instead of living to work. Any job can be done well or sloppily and satisfaction isn't all about the money you make.

I would have benefited in a lot of ways if I had worked harder to make more but I don't regret that I never missed any of my kids' activities because that was more important to me.
Click to expand...
Ask any public school teacher who truly loves kids and loves teaching kids but deals with ridiculous parents, unnecessary administration meddling, has to buy her own supplies and is not paid enough for any of it.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Some types of service industries can and do provide the kind of environment that leads to community. Places like large hotels and resorts often have core groups who work there for long periods of time. This is also true of airlines as an example. However, so.many services have become individualized like driving for UBER or delivering for Amazon or Doordash. That has no possibility at all of being meaningful for most beyond the pay or tips they receive that day.

Largely one could draw the line at employees versus independent contractors in today's environment. It isnt perfect, but it does serve as a starting point for work with a community versus work without.
Click to expand...
Over the years I've read many articles that seem to fit into this.

Studies that show clearly that pay isn't the top variable in job satisfaction. Many companies that promote that sense of belonging and family retain employees better and are not the top paying employers in their industry.

Also, interesting how so many talk about bringing back manufacturing, but from what I've read manufacturing was a primary catalyst in splitting work from life and community. Before the consolidation of work in factories peoples work was a bigger part of their life and their community. This thought makes the show Severance a very interesting concept as it takes separation of work and life to the extreme.
 
lawtig02 said:
I don't have a subscription but I was able to listen to The Daily podcast about it a couple of days ago. Looks like that's behind the paywall now, though.

Here's what you need to know. Kid is brought over from Mexico while young. Grows up in a small Georgia town. Becomes thoroughly Americanized. Becomes a great citizen of this town. Marries a white girl from the town and is a great father. But he's not a US citizen. After the election, his FIL, who loves him dearly, tells him he voted for Trump and can't imagine why his SIL is so worried about possibly being deported. The SIL tells his FIL what Trump said repeatedly in the campaign. FIL says Trump is only going after criminals, not people like his SIL. SIL makes it very clear to FIL that's not what Trump said in the campaign and not what he's been saying in setting up his new administration. FIL doesn't believe him even now.

In the meantime, SIL and his wife visit an immigration lawyer in Atlanta who says SIL is VERY much at risk. But SIL can't afford to do the things that could potentially protect him, and even those things would put him at great risk of being separated from his family. So as of today, they have no idea what to do.

In short, FIL is the callatoroy of this story. When calla says people here have TDS, that's what FIL is basically telling his supposedly beloved SIL.
Click to expand...
Which poster also stated that technically they are all criminals since they are here illegally? So the FIL should have realized that trump felt this way, they are all criminals and he's going after the criminals.
 
4thgenheel said:
in today's FAFO headlines:

www.nytimes.com

The Alienation of Jaime Cachua

His friends and family members in Rome, Ga., voted to support mass deportation. Now he’s scrambling to stay in the country.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

anyone have a gift link for this so i can read and laugh at these fucking morons?
Click to expand...
Discussed here with a gift link courtesy of altmin...

altmin

Politics Post in thread 'Trump / Musk (other than DOGE)'

www.nytimes.com

The Alienation of Jaime Cachua

His friends and family members in Rome, Ga., voted to support mass deportation. Now he’s scrambling to stay in the country.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

gift article
 
Paine said:
Careful now, you’re sounding awfully red.
Click to expand...
Karl Marx's theory of alienation describes the separation and estrangement of people from their work, their wider world, their human nature, and their selves. Alienation is a consequence of the division of labour in a capitalist society, wherein a human being's life is lived as a mechanistic part of a social class.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top