Where do we go from here?

[aGDevil2k]

How do democrats start to win red state elections again? THAT is key.

 

[Paine]

Is the point of the article to change my mind about Bernie or to talk about populism as a winning strategy?

It talks about populism as a winning strategy. The article barely mentions whether Bernie would’ve won in 2016/2020 or not. Just a headline meant to get people to click, though obviously didn’t work with some of the posters here.

I wouldn’t have posted it if it was just about “would Bernie have won?” That’s something we’ve talked about ad infinitum here and not something Shakir or Klein think is relevant really. The article is just a transcript of Klein’s podcast episode with Shakir if you’d rather listen.

 

[Paine]

How do democrats start to win red state elections again? THAT is key.

Discussed in the piece, that’s why I posted it.

 

[aGDevil2k]

Discussed in the piece, that’s why I posted it.

I dont wanna read

 

[finesse]

Discussed in the piece, that’s why I posted it.

I did read it and didn't find it terribly convincing. I don't so much think that his logic is wrong but I think he greatly underestimates how tightly people hold on to their misconceptions, especially when reinforced by their prejudices.

 

[Paine]

I did read it and didn't find it terribly convincing. I don't so much think that his logic is wrong but I think he greatly underestimates how tightly people hold on to their misconceptions, especially when reinforced by their prejudices.

Of course, and thanks for reading and engaging. Like Faiz says, we’re talking about 4-5% of the population being the difference here.

 

[Paine]

Analysis: Kamala Harris Turned Away From Economic Populism

Pressed by influential corporate advisors, Kamala Harris ran away from a winning economic populist message and ended up losing a campaign. We have the proof.

jacobin.com

Even David Brooks is coming around…

“I’m a moderate who really did not like the policies that Bernie Sanders proposes. And yet . . . it could be that in order to win working-class votes in an era of high distrust, the Democrats have to do a lot of things that Bernie Sanders said they should do.”

 

[BlueSmoke]

How do democrats start to win red state elections again? THAT is key.

You know, sooner or later this is going to boil down to a more centrist appeal vs a "latte Liberal" appeal as Rev. Al calls it. A more "small town" centrist appeal is going to play where Democrats are eroding.

Democrats are eroding in blue wall states. Its hard not to notice that Senate candidates like Pa's Senator's Casey and Fetterman ran (or running) more centrist. And both Senate candidates in Wisconsin and Michigan warned heavily about not responding to the transgender lie ad.

Its hard not to notice erosion in Latino and black men. And erosion in blue collar and less educated segments.

Junk the "latte Liberal" elitism, talking down to voters and will do better in red states, but more importantly will stop the erosion which is killing Democrats.

 

[finesse]

Of course, and thanks for reading and engaging. Like Faiz says, we’re talking about 4-5% of the population being the difference here.

Yeah, I get that. I like some of the ideas and approaches. My concern is that socialism has such a bad reputation in the US, probably mostly undeserved, that I'm skeptical whether or not our losses wouldn't be greater than our gains.

 

[Paine]

Yeah, I get that. I like some of the ideas and approaches. My concern is that socialism has such a bad reputation in the US, probably mostly undeserved, that I'm skeptical whether or not our losses wouldn't be greater than our gains.

Right. I’m not suggesting that Democrats run as socialists, and I don’t think Faiz is. Bernie had called himself one for decades so had to call himself one to remain consistent and on brand. It’s more about the working-class centered politics and policy than the socialist label.

 

[finesse]

Right. I’m not suggesting that Democrats run as socialists, and I don’t think Faiz is. Bernie had called himself one for decades so had to call himself one to remain consistent and on brand. It’s more about the working-class centered politics and policy than the socialist label.

That would be fine if we got to do the labelling. This election tells you who they listen to. If it were us, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion. I still think that is the real issue. It's not what we have done or what we need to do. We're largely heading in the right direction. It's getting them to pay attention. Until we can, it doesn't much matter what we say. It sure didn't this election. Just look at all the polls about what voters believed.

 

[Paine]

That would be fine if we got to do the labelling. This election tells you who they listen to. If it were us, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion. I still think that is the real issue. It's not what we have done or what we need to do. We're largely heading in the right direction. It's getting them to pay attention. Until we can, it doesn't much matter what we say. It sure didn't this election. Just look at all the polls about what voters believed.

The labeling on the right is only effective insofar as it reinforces a sentiment about Democratic leadership and campaigns. That is, they are out of touch, coastal elites who don’t feel the economic pain that the average American feels. That is the dynamic Trump has played into since 2016. It can be defanged, IMO.

Again, I appreciate the discussion.

 

[BlueSmoke]

Like Faiz says, we’re talking about 4-5% of the population being the difference here.

NBC's Chuck Todd said on the last day of October that the Harris Campaign calculated they could not win unless they pulled the Nikki Haley REPUBLICAN voters. That's just stunning to me and appears to be what happened. The stunning part is that there weren't 4-5% gettable voters for Democrats. This indicates a pretty big refresh of the Democratic image will be needed.

I make a prediction that the 2028 Democratic Primary will come down to a boring Bill Clinton centrist type vs a Bernie Sanders enthusiasm type.

As this election proved: enthusiasm gets you the money, it gets you the ground game, its gets the celebrities out for you, it gets the huge rallies.........but if its not paired with something that appeals to small town America, it runs into trouble on election day.

 

[Paine]

NBC's Chuck Todd said on the last day of October that the Harris Campaign calculated they could not win unless they pulled the Nikki Haley REPUBLICAN voters. That's just stunning to me and appears to be what happened. The stunning part is that there weren't 4-5% gettable voters for Democrats. This indicates a pretty big refresh of the Democratic image will be needed.

I make a prediction that the 2028 Democratic Primary will come down to a boring Bill Clinton centrist type vs a Bernie Sanders enthusiasm type.

As this election proved: enthusiasm gets you the money, it gets you the ground game, its gets the celebrities out for you...........but if its not paired with something that appeals to small town America, it runs into trouble on election day.

You think Harris and Sanders would’ve run similar campaigns? What you’re saying about small towns is true, but I don’t see any evidence you get those people back by running a centrist campaign. Harris just ran a centrist campaign and lost. Clinton ran a centrist campaign and lost. Biden embraced economic populism on the campaign trail and won.

Like you say, Harris’ entire campaign was predicated on winning over disaffected Republicans rather than drumming up and turning out the Democratic base and non-traditional voters.

Small town folks want people who address their everyday economic circumstances, same as everyone else.

What does a centrist campaign look like to you? From what I can tell based on your posts, you’re more so talking about just being more in touch with working people. Are there centrist policy positions that accomplish this?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

You think Harris and Sanders would’ve run similar campaigns? What you’re saying about small towns is true, but I don’t see any evidence you get those people back by running a centrist campaign. Harris just ran a centrist campaign and lost. Clinton ran a centrist campaign and lost. Biden embraced economic populism on the campaign trail and won.

Like you say, Harris’ entire campaign was predicated on winning over disaffected Republicans rather than drumming up and turning out the Democratic base and non-traditional voters.

Small town folks want people who address their everyday economic circumstances, same as everyone else.

What does a centrist campaign look like to you? From what I can tell based on your posts, you’re more so talking about just being more in touch with working people. Are there centrist policy positions that accomplish this?

I got to say promising down payments for first-time home buyers and promising implement price controls on groceries doesn't reek of centrism. I think she got desperate and started trying to go for that economic populist argument but it was never going to happen. Inflation put her in a spot that anyone would have had a tough time climbing out of and she certainly is nowhere near the politician that we needed to do that.

 

[Paine]

I got to say promising down payments for first-time home buyers and implementing price controls on groceries doesn't reek of centrism. I think she got desperate and started trying to go for that economic populist argument but it was never going to happen. Inflation put her in a spot that anyone would have had a tough time climbing out of and she certainly is nowhere near the politician that we needed to do that.

She didn’t advocate price controls on groceries. She advocated passing a price gouging law during emergencies. Many states have these laws.

$25,000 assistance for first time home buyers is okay, but it isn’t economic populism by definition. It’s exactly the kind of center-left policy the Dems have perused for a long time now. That does not move the needle for people that can barely afford rent.

All the evidence and reporting shows that Harris’ pivot after the convention was towards the center. Her advisors were from the corporate world, and it showed. Her high watermark in the polls actually came when she was talking the most populist she did the entire campaign, around the time of the Walz selection.

 

[aGDevil2k]

She didn’t advocate price controls on groceries. She advocated passing a price gouging law during emergencies. Many states have these laws.

$25,000 assistance for first time home buyers is okay, but it isn’t economic populism by definition. It’s exactly the kind of center-left policy the Dems have perused for a long time now. That does not move the needle for people that can barely afford rent.

All the evidence and reporting shows that Harris’ pivot after the convention was towards the center. Her advisors were from the corporate world, and it showed. Her high watermark in the polls actually came when she was talking the most populist she did the entire campaign, around the time of the Walz selection

The Harris post-mortem is pointless. She was f'd because of being tied to Biden.

We should more talk about going forward

 

[gtyellowjacket]

She didn’t advocate price controls on groceries. She advocated passing a price gouging law during emergencies. Many states have these laws.

$25,000 assistance for first time home buyers is okay, but it isn’t economic populism by definition. It’s exactly the kind of center-left policy the Dems have perused for a long time now. That does not move the needle for people that can barely afford rent.

All the evidence and reporting shows that Harris’ pivot after the convention was towards the center. Her advisors were from the corporate world, and it showed. Her high watermark in the polls actually came when she was talking the most populist she did the entire campaign, around the time of the Walz selection.

You are dreaming. $25,000 of taxpayer money to first-time home buyers? How is that centrist?

And she proposed an anti-price gouging law, But didn't really go into a whole lot of detail on what may constitute an emergency. But her stump speech talked about how food prices shot up during covid when supply chains were disrupted but lamented the fact that food prices haven't gone back down when supply chains have normalized. So is she going to say it's okay for a covid-like disruption to increase food prices but now that the covid emergency is passed normal supply and demand somehow constitutes an emergency? That seems to be what She is implying.

I get it. Both candidates made ridiculous promises they have no hope of keeping and that's the way campaigns work. But to wave our hands and say that Price controls and tax money giveaways to young people in hopes that they will vote for her is rational centrist policy is pretty absurd.

 

[Paine]

You are dreaming. $25,000 of taxpayer money to first-time home buyers? How is that centrist?

And she proposed an anti-price gouging law, But didn't really go into a whole lot of detail on what may constitute an emergency. But her stump speech talked about how food prices shot up during covid when supply chains were disrupted but lamented the fact that food prices haven't gone back down when supply chains have normalized. So is she going to say it's okay for a covid-like disruption to increase food prices but now that the covid emergency is passed that somehow constitutes an emergency? That seems to be wha

I get it. Both candidates made ridiculous promises they have no hope of keeping and that's the way campaigns work. But to wave our hands and say that Price controls and tax money giveaways to young people in hopes that they will vote for her is rational centrist policy is pretty absurd.

Price controls aren’t centrist policy, but she wasn’t advocating for that. It’s not hand waving, it’s the truth.

$25,000 down payment assistance to first time home buyers is a center left policy, nothing more nothing less. It’s not radical by any means. It’s telling that these are the policies being picked to demonstrate that she ran a far left campaign.

Did Trump run a centrist campaign?

 

[Paine]

The Harris post-mortem is pointless. She was f'd because of being tied to Biden.

We should more talk about going forward

She could’ve won regardless of Biden if she had tried to actually distance herself from him. Talking about the failures of the Harris campaign is imperative to understanding how we move forward. The party has learned no lessons.