Where do we go from here?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 1K
  • Views: 17K
  • Politics 
ZenMode said:
I agree that Dems haven't always been perceived as they are now, however you want to describe it: Talking down, holier than thou, pretentious know-it-alls, judgemental etc.

Bill Clinton and Dems at the time certainly weren't perceived that way. So, what changed?
Click to expand...
The party’s leadership is captive to an educated consultant class and nonprofit identity-focused issue world.

Hillary Clinton telling Bernie Sanders that breaking up the big banks won’t solve racism is the encapsulation of this dynamic.
 
Paine said:
There was a lot more going on with the Stevenson elections than just him being perceived as an egghead liberal.

Stevenson was running against a better-liked, more recognizable figure who was also a New Deal liberal. The Alger Hiss debacle certainly didn’t help.
Click to expand...
Iow, a man of the people..

Now ,I think Eisenhower was the last good man the Republicans ever elected as president but that was still the party of McCarthyism. Not sure what Hiss had to do with Stevenson.
 
finesse said:
Iow, a man of the people..

Now ,I think Eisenhower was the last good man the Republicans ever elected as president but that was still the party of McCarthyism. Not sure what Hiss had to do with Stevenson.
Click to expand...
Stevenson was a character witness for Hiss in 49 (they worked together in the AAA). Even though Stevenson really didn’t seem to know Hiss well. Of course this deposition was used against Stevenson when the Hiss stuff really kicked off.

People tried to tar Roosevelt with the soft on communism stuff, but Stevenson was the prototype for this type of Republican campaign tactic.

McCarthy even had a line when campaigning for Ike and Dick in 1952 where he said “Alger…I mean Adlai.”

Point being: yes, the Republican playbook of calling liberals soft (on communism, crime, whatever) and portraying them as elitist has been around for a while. The Democrats are able to get away from this by running people who buck this label/picture and by campaigning on issues that do the same, IMO.
 
Paine said:
Stevenson was a character witness for Hiss in 49 (they worked together in the AAA). Even though Stevenson really didn’t seem to know Hiss well. Of course this deposition was used against Stevenson when the Hiss stuff really kicked off.

People tried to tar Roosevelt with the soft on communism stuff, but Stevenson was the prototype for this type of Republican campaign tactic.

McCarthy even had a line when campaigning for Ike and Dick in 1952 where he said “Alger…I mean Adlai.”

Point being: yes, the Republican playbook of calling liberals soft (on communism, crime, whatever) and portraying them as elitist has been around for a while. The Democrats are able to get away from this by running people who buck this label/picture and by campaigning on issues that do the same, IMO.
Click to expand...
Yeah and with nothing even approaching an unbiased media anymore, the side that tells the most lies fastest profit most. The message hasn't changed nearly as much as the delivery system. It's still more about the 'pubs making people scared and longing for the better days that never existed.
 
finesse said:
Yeah and with nothing even approaching an unbiased media anymore, the side that tells the most lies fastest profit most. The message hasn't changed nearly as much as the delivery system. It's still more about the 'pubs making people scared and longing for the better days that never existed.
Click to expand...
Without a doubt, today’s media landscape makes it more challenging. Democrats haven’t done themselves any favors though. A lot of stuff they’ve done in the last 20 years has played into right-wing narratives about liberals. Dems have also been reticent to embrace their own independent media. Hopefully that changes.
 
Paine said:
The party’s leadership is captive to an educated consultant class and nonprofit identity-focused issue world.

Hillary Clinton telling Bernie Sanders that breaking up the big banks won’t solve racism is the encapsulation of this dynamic.
Click to expand...
I assume "identity-focused issue world" is a reference to identity politics. I think there's a significant amount of overlap between the former and latter groups you mention, but it certainly appears, based on post election polling, that identity politics was/is an anchor on the Democratic Party.

The question is whether or not the party can (or wants to) distance themselves from that portion of the party.

I know it's common to label all Trump voters as the uneducated, blindly allegiant masses. I believe a lot of the Trump support came in the form of votes against the ideals of the Left, which has infected the Democratic party. Biden was viewed as a traditional Democrat and did a good job of distancing himself from the Left.....and he kicked the shit out of Trump. Kamala was never able to do it. I'm not sure she even tried.
 
ZenMode said:
I assume "identity-focused issue world" is a reference to identity politics. I think there's a significant amount of overlap between the former and latter groups you mention, but it certainly appears, based on post election polling, that identity politics was/is an anchor on the Democratic Party.

The question is whether or not the party can (or wants to) distance themselves from that portion of the party.

I know it's common to label all Trump voters as the uneducated, blindly allegiant masses. I believe a lot of the Trump support came in the form of votes against the ideals of the Left, which has infected the Democratic party. Biden was viewed as a traditional Democrat and did a good job of distancing himself from the Left.....and he kicked the shit out of Trump. Kamala was never able to do it. I'm not sure she even tried.
Click to expand...
Identity politics isn’t exclusively associated with the left IMO.

There are several factions within the Democratic Party that I think can be roughly broken down as follows.

1. Non woke leftists (Bernie)
2. Woke leftists (activist types)
3. Woke moderates (Clinton, Harris)
4. Non woke moderates (Biden)

This is why simple discussions of left and right in the Democratic Party don’t really make sense. There is overlap between these groups on the margins of course. I tend to think that the word “woke” does have a meaning, though mine may not match the definition a lot of right-wingers have.

Right now a lot of woke moderates are suddenly acting like it was the identity politics (that they peddled) that is causing Dem losses. The reality is, it’s part woke and part lack of emphasis on working people and pocketbook economics.

The woke moderates are more than happen throw left economics under the bus by casting the entire left under the “woke” umbrella. It’s ahistorical though.
 
Paine said:
Identity politics isn’t exclusively associated with the left IMO.

There are several factions within the Democratic Party that I think can be roughly broken down as follows.

1. Non woke leftists (Bernie)
2. Woke leftists (activist types)
3. Woke moderates (Clinton, Harris)
4. Non woke moderates (Biden)

This is why simple discussions of left and right in the Democratic Party don’t really make sense. There is overlap between these groups on the margins of course. I tend to think that the word “woke” does have a meaning, though mine may not match the definition a lot of right-wingers have.

Right now a lot of woke moderates are suddenly acting like it was the identity politics (that they peddled) that is causing Dem losses. The reality is, it’s part woke and part lack of emphasis on working people and pocketbook economics.

The woke moderates are more than happen throw left economics under the bus by casting the entire left under the “woke” umbrella. It’s ahistorical though.
Click to expand...
I agree that identity politics is not unique to the Democratic party. To a point, we all engage in identity politics in our everyday lives. I do think that a decent portion of the identity politics we see in the Republican party is the result of, and reaction to, identity politics in the Democratic party...but that's a different discussion.

"Woke", at least on the right, is a cover-all term for most anything related to social activism that the Republican party doesn't like. Trans activism, DEI, progressive legal concepts....you can throw affirmative action in there. To varying degrees, those things are interwoven with identity politics and seem to be what voters are pushing back against.
 
Last edited:
ZenMode said:
I agree that identity politics is not unique to the Democratic party. To a point, we all engage in identity politics in our everyday lives. I do think that a decent portion of the identity politics we see in the Republican party is the result of, and reaction to, identity politics in the Democratic party...but that a different discussion.

"Woke", at least on the right, is a cover-all term for most anything related to social activism that the Republican party doesn't like. Trans activism, DEI, progressive legal concepts....you can throw affirmative action in there. To varying degrees, those things are interwoven with identity politics and seem to be what voters are pushing back against.
Click to expand...
Agree about the Republican definition of woke. It’s definitely a real concept that people, left and right, are pushing back against regardless of people’s individual definitions. Reps picked up on an underlying anger and have turned it towards their own means quite effectively.

My definition of it is something closer to being obsessed with individual identity over what binds us together. The only identity the Democrats need to focus on is working class people vs. the ultra rich and corporate interests. That’s how the party has always built power.

Obviously I acknowledge that intersectionality is a real thing. I think the best way to address systemic inequality is through dismantling capitalism. Short of that, it’s through regulating the system’s worst impulses.
 
Well after saying for months and months that he was going to get grocery prices down, Trump now says he can't do that.

So, looks to me like "go from here" for the democrats is just speak to people across the country "we get it, and we will do xyz, but we wont lie to your face like they just did" and start saying it now all the way thru 2026 and 28
 
aGDevil2k said:
Well after saying for months and months that he was going to get grocery prices down, Trump now says he can't do that.

So, looks to me like "go from here" for the democrats is just speak to people across the country "we get it, and we will do xyz, but we wont lie to your face like they just did" and start saying it now all the way thru 2026 and 28
Click to expand...
I think many people would prefer to be lied to.
 
aGDevil2k said:
Well after saying for months and months that he was going to get grocery prices down, Trump now says he can't do that.

So, looks to me like "go from here" for the democrats is just speak to people across the country "we get it, and we will do xyz, but we wont lie to your face like they just did" and start saying it now all the way thru 2026 and 28
Click to expand...
Biden’s fine. We don’t know what you’re talking about.
 
www.thenation.com

How America Invented the Red State

According to conventional wisdom, the last quarter century of elections has proved that most of the country leans conservative. It all started with a map.
www.thenation.com www.thenation.com

Long read but worth it. Something a lot of liberal posters here need to read.
 
cup.columbia.edu

Rust Belt Union Blues | Columbia University Press

In the heyday of American labor, the influence of local unions extended far beyond the workplace. Unions were embedded in tight-knit communities, touching ne... | CUP
cup.columbia.edu cup.columbia.edu

Finally got my hands on this book for the holiday. Good read so far.

“Lainey Newman and Theda Skocpol provide timely insight into the relationship between the decline of unions and the shift of working-class voters away from Democrats. Drawing on interviews, union newsletters, and ethnographic analysis, they pinpoint the significance of eroding local community ties and identities. Using western Pennsylvania as a case study, Newman and Skocpol argue that union members’ loyalty to Democratic candidates was as much a product of the group identity that unions fostered as it was a response to the Democratic Party’s economic policies. As the social world around organized labor dissipated, conservative institutions like gun clubs, megachurches, and other Republican-leaning groups took its place.

Rust Belt Union Blues sheds new light on why so many union members have dramatically changed their party politics. It makes a compelling case that Democrats are unlikely to rebuild credibility in places like western Pennsylvania unless they find new ways to weave themselves into the daily lives of workers and their families.”
 
My Deddy (born 1916) was a New Dealer from rural NC and actually more of an Eleonor than a Franklin Delano Roosevelt Democrat. He always said that Adlai Stevenson was the best man he ever saw run for president that never won.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top