2024 Presidential Election | ELECTION DAY 2024

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This is a perfectly reasonable take. But thats not what Trump and his admin want to do. Do I need to list all the things he says he wants to do for you? Do I know Trump's platform better than a Trump voter?

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes. The put way more into our system than they get out, AND they have a lower crime rate. We should probably be welcoming in way more of them and getting rid of all the assholes we currently have.
Trump will push the envelope, there will be challenges, there will be lawsuits, and like anything else government-related it’ll take forever. The ACLU is already talking about how they’ll mitigate some of Trump’s more concerning impulses in this area.

In other words, Trump will set an anti-illegal immigration tone, and if he’s successful, maybe he’ll get 3 million people deported this time (compared to the 1 million from his last administration and the 300,000 from Biden administration). It will never be all 11 million+ in four years.

Edit: this is starting to get too far down the illegal immigration rabbit hole and this thread is supposed to be about the election itself. Happy to continue this convo in a thread about illegal immigration.
 
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Trump will push the envelope, there will be challenges, there will be lawsuits, and like anything else government-related it’ll take forever. The ACLU is already talking about how they’ll mitigate some of Trump’s more concerning impulses in this area.

In other words, Trump will set an anti-illegal immigration tone, and if he’s successful, maybe he’ll get 3 million people deported this time (compared to the 1 million from his last administration and the 300,000 from Biden administration). It will never be all 11 million+ in four years.
Wait wait wait. You think The Biden Admin has only deported 300k?

What's your data?

From May 2023 to January 2024, the latest available data, there have been 520,000 returns and removals. The next highest number is the 518,000 returns and removals in fiscal year 2019, under the Trump administration.

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And even then. What benefit do we get as a nation, in deporting 3 million people who are contributing to our society? Why is this such a big issue? If the Venezuelan lady who traveled a thousand miles, came all this way and took your job, maybe you need to work on your resume.

yeah we can continue elsewhere, for sure
 
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When I was a wee one people like me did not have to worry about women or Brown peope taking my G-d given spot in UNC admisssions...
Make America Great again
 
I think we agree on this. Start by deporting the ones who are eating the garden. There is no need to deport the ones who are living productive lives and helping our country thrive - just make sure they at least pay their fair share while they’re here and using our resources (education, healthcare, etc)
No immigrants- legal or otherwise - are just “eating the garden”. None. Zero. Nada. Every single one is working, and working hard I might add. They are paying taxes, paying rent, buying groceries and feeding their families (kids who go to school and perform much better than fat, entitled Maga white kids, and that is a fact)
 
Because the right wing media has painted a picture of thousands of drug dealing, murdering MS-13 gang members pouring across the border daily with no obstacles.

And apparently when they do there is a voucher for a 5 star hotel, free healthcare and a voter registration form waiting for them on this side of the border.

It doesn’t matter that it isn’t true…it’s what they “feel” is happening.
 
No immigrants- legal or otherwise - are just “eating the garden”. None. Zero. Nada. Every single one is working, and working hard I might add. They are paying taxes, paying rent, buying groceries and feeding their families (kids who go to school and perform much better than fat, entitled Maga white kids, and that is a fact)
Is this an example of a “good faith” or “bad faith” poast?
 
Trump will push the envelope, there will be challenges, there will be lawsuits, and like anything else government-related it’ll take forever. The ACLU is already talking about how they’ll mitigate some of Trump’s more concerning impulses in this area.

In other words, Trump will set an anti-illegal immigration tone, and if he’s successful, maybe he’ll get 3 million people deported this time (compared to the 1 million from his last administration and the 300,000 from Biden administration). It will never be all 11 million+ in four years.

Edit: this is starting to get too far down the illegal immigration rabbit hole and this thread is supposed to be about the election itself. Happy to continue this convo in a thread about this illegals immigration.
You sure you have the right numbers? Looks like Trump deported about 1.5 million migrants in his four years and Biden is on a very similar pace.

 
You sure you have the right numbers? Looks like Trump deported about 1.5 million migrants in his four years and Biden is on a very similar pace.

See my post above that I think we need to move the immigration discussion to a different thread and move this one back on track to focus on the election. This will be my last immigration post on this thread but wanted to respond to you since we’ve had some good back and forth lately.

I think the difference in your data and mine is likely due to the various ways this can be counted - “removals”, “returns” and “expulsions” all have different meanings. I will link the NBC News article where I got my numbers from below, understanding that this only captures like 3+ years of Biden data vs 4 years of Trump.

“During the Trump years there were an estimated 935,089 deportations, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement data. As of February, there have been an estimated 339,751 deportations during the Biden administration.”

Link: How would mass deportation of migrants under Trump actually work?
 
See my post above that I think we need to move the immigration discussion to a different thread and move this one back on track to focus on the election. This will be my last immigration post on this thread but wanted to respond to you since we’ve had some good back and forth lately.

I think the difference in your data and mine is likely due to the various ways this can be counted - “removals”, “returns” and “expulsions” all have different meanings. I will link the NBC News article where I got my numbers from below, understanding that this only captures like 3+ years of Biden data vs 4 years of Trump.

“During the Trump years there were an estimated 935,089 deportations, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement data. As of February, there have been an estimated 339,751 deportations during the Biden administration.”

Link: How would mass deportation of migrants under Trump actually work?
Appreciate the data. I'll try to bring it back to just general election talk as well. So really you just like the "talk" of Trump acting "tough" (tough in your eyes) on certain things, even though you know he won't do those things.

I only ask, because why is the "talk" of saying these things, better than someone actually trying to pass laws that help us, like gun safety, healthcare assistance, women's rights, lgbtq rights and so on? Because all these issues help waaay more Americans than trying to deport 0.4% of our population which could actually cause economic harm.
 
So basically, your argument is that Trump won’t actually do what he says he’ll do
Curb Your Enthusiasm Bingo GIF by Jason Clarke

It's maddeningly illogical and irrational. HY2012 - the Trump Whisperer.

And also, he's mentioned before our institutional guardrails against tyrants would rein him in. How comforting. Especially since the entire right wing apparatus has worked for years to weaken, if not outright dismantle, those guardrails.

He's either being dishonest with himself or dishonest with us.
 
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HY2012 is such a confusing person - he says he's mostly voting for Democrats statewide in North Carolina which I'm very thankful for - but he's pretty much all in on Trump - even if you think Harris will be too liberal she most likely will have to govern with a divided government - it's very possible that the Republicans will control the Senate and the house during her presidency assuming she wins
 
I think it was always inevitable after the party unconditionally surrendered to Trump in 2016 – remember Lindsey Graham saying that if the GOP nominated Trump that it would get destroyed and deservedly so? – but it has still been really remarkable to see the complete and total collapse of GOP policy on almost everything from immigration, to foreign policy, and everything in between.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party of law and order, but then they nominated a convicted felon who openly announces his intent to pardon all of the other convicted felons who were put behind bars for beating the shit out of “the blue” on January 6.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party of support the troops, but then they nominated a guy who disparaged prisoners of war, Gold Star and Purple Heart families, called American soldiers “suckers and losers” forgiving their lives on the battlefield in defense of our freedom, and refused to go to the American cemetery at Normandy on a day that it was raining because it would mess up his hair.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party that talked the talk and walked the walk on being tough on Russia, but now they nominated a guy who openly performs fellatio on Vladimir Putin in front of the entire world.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to advocate for supporting our democratic allies abroad through military and financial aid, but now they have nominated a ticket that expresses an open desire to surrender Ukraine to the Russians.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party of strong border security, but now they have nominated a guy who openly bragged that he single-handedly torpedoed the strongest by bipartisan immigration reform and border security legislation in decades.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party of individual responsibility and pull yourself up by the bootstraps, but now they have nominated a guy who has never taken personal responsibility or been held accountable for anything which he has ever done in his life yet still whines and cries and complains that he has been treated more unfairly than anyone in American history.

It used to be that you could count on the GOP to be the party of personal freedoms, but now the entire party wants the government to get all up in your wife or your girlfriend’s or your daughter’s vagina, or hang out in your bedroom while you have sex with another consenting adult of your choice.

I can’t think of anything more humiliating or embarrassing than to be a Republican trying to argue with a straight face that the current Republican Party is anything remotely resembling a classically conservative movement with classically conservative policy aims and goals.
 
HY2012 is such a confusing person - he says he's mostly voting for Democrats statewide in North Carolina which I'm very thankful for - but he's pretty much all in on Trump - even if you think Harris will be too liberal she most likely will have to govern with a divided government - it's very possible that the Republicans will control the Senate and the house during her presidency assuming she wins
HY12 is not alone in that approach and makes a good faith effort here to explain why. Even though I remain genuinely baffled by the Trump support, I appreciate the effort to help me understand the POV.
 
HY2012 is such a confusing person - he says he's mostly voting for Democrats statewide in North Carolina which I'm very thankful for - but he's pretty much all in on Trump - even if you think Harris will be too liberal she most likely will have to govern with a divided government - it's very possible that the Republicans will control the Senate and the house during her presidency assuming she wins
He recognizes the positive traits of Jeff Jackson, Stein, Cooper, etc. and seems opposed to Mark Robinson. Yet, on the national scale, fails to similarly oppose Trump even though he is a white rich version of Robinson. Trump will propose something completely ridiculous, and HY2012's response is to just not believe his clearly stated position.
 
Strongly disagree that he’s one of the worst people alive today.

Simply put, I trust Trump on the economy and on immigration more than I do Harris. Those 2 issues are core issues for me whereas other stuff is more secondary. I’m pro choice and generally pro gun reform, so it’s not like I’m a huge pro-life or 2nd amendment single issue voter. As far as foreign policy, I’m more of an isolationalist in the sense that I think the United States often gets taken advantage of in some of the alliances we are in.

This package of beliefs leads me to vote for Democrats in some races - for instance, the NC governor’s race has nothing to do with immigration (where national Dems are a total disaster) or foreign policy - two issues I side with Republicans on - but it does have a lot to do with abortion (where I’m pro choice) now that Roe has been overturned.
I appreciate your response. And I figured it had to do w/the "Trump economic policy" thing but for the first year or so at least, he rode the wave of what was already in place. You can't buy an antique car from a person who meticulously restored it and cared for it and kept it in a climate-controlled garage under a slipcover and then claim that you're responsible for the state of the car. You can claim ownership/stewardship of it from that point, but you cannot take credit for its condition. However, if over a couple/few years you leave it out in the rain, don't protect it, and drive it off-road, even though perhaps you keep the interior clean, then the responsibility for the resulting state of the car is squarely yours.

Have you actually looked at 1) what he did economically while in office and 2) what he's saying he's going to do if he's re-elected? Unless you're a very wealthy person - and I doubt you are if you are complaining about the cost of groceries, but I'm okay with giving you the BoD if you claim otherwise - favoring Trump's economic policies just doesn't square with the reality that you and I live every day. Will his proposed across-the-board tariffs on imports make things better for you? Will his corporate and wealthy-person-oriented tax cuts improve your portfolio? I'm not saying Dems are perfect, but we know the Pub playbook by heart now - tax cuts for the rich and corporations, appoint Pub judges (hopefully to SCOTUS), loosen gun control (literally the 1st thing Trump did in 2017), and try to cut any so-called "entitlements" programs.

As for immigration - did you actually read an extract of what was in the bill that Trump ordered to be killed, and like obedient sycophant lapdogs, even though many of them were seething about it, the Pubs did just that? This is a great summary of its provisions: https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/analysis-senate-border-bill

Screen-scraping the bullet-points from that page, this is what was in the bill (NOT popular with progressive Dems, BTW):
1. A “Border Emergency Authority” Adding a New, Restrictive, and Opaque Process until Border Crossings Reach Very Low Levels
2. A Quicker, More Restrictive Non-Custodial Asylum Process for Border Entrants
3. Changes to Detention and Alternatives to Detention
4. A Path to Citizenship for Afghan Evacuees and Allies
5. The First Increases to Legal Immigration Since 1990
6. Congressional Funding for Asylum Officers and Lawyers for Kids


Isn't Trump ordering it to be killed so he could use it as a campaign issue - and your party falling in line and doing exactly that without any kind of discussion - strike you as patently disingenuous and reckless for people who claim they actually want to do something about immigration? You're correct that there is plenty of blame to go around (and in my view, the same all-encompassing blame as the gross neglect of our national education system), but you can't claim the Dems did nothing this time around.

I think the first sentence though - that you disagree that he's one of the worst people in the world - is much more telling than any of your stated policy positions. Why exactly do you think maybe he's not such a bad guy after all? Do you feel he doesn't deserve the character or other criticism he gets? Presumably you are also a Christian - does it not concern you that he claims to not ask for forgiveness and his favorite part of the Bible is "all of it?"
 
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