ACCT: dook Biorhythms, 7:00 pm Start

[stankeylegjones]

Not sure who else besides Withers I'd have had in and he looked emotionally wrecked. They just defended well. I understand that when you have the number one team and are taller at every single position that sort of stuff can happen.

Yeah, if JWit is not in a good mental state then he should not have been in, and I don't know how he would've been in a good mental state.

Do you think putting in IJ over VAL would've been a better lineup? (After all, HD/staff had to assume that Duke is going to switch on screens (at least those involving RJ) so they can deny RJ the ball. And you need a 3, while rebounding is not going to be an option.) JWash, if you still think size mattered in that situation?

Yes, the did defend it well, but it was an easily defendable play.

What are your thoughts about only have the one option?

 

[Heelsandeers]

Duke had a 99% chance of winning at halftime and it actually increased from there. Still cannot believe they ended up in a position to win that game

I think it was around the 4 min mark after Seth's and-1 that cut it to 6 that it really hit me

Feel absolutely terrible for Withers and the team in general. I just hope that ultimately it's not what keeps them from playing next week

 

[stankeylegjones]

Duke had a 99% chance of winning at halftime and it actually increased from there. Still cannot believe they ended up in a position to win that game

I think it was around the 4 min mark after Seth's and-1 that cut it to 6 that it really hit me

Feel absolutely terrible for Withers and the team in general. I just hope that ultimately it's not what keeps them from playing next week

It would absolutely suck for JWit if they are held out of the tourney, and they turn down an NIT invitation, and this is his last game at UNC. He's made so many critical contributions to this program, yet he'll only be remembered by many for this mistake.

 

[finesse]

Yeah, if JWit is not in a good mental state then he should not have been in, and I don't know how he would've been in a good mental state.

Do you think putting in IJ over VAL would've been a better lineup? (After all, HD/staff had to assume that Duke is going to switch on screens (at least those involving RJ) so they can deny RJ the ball. And you need a 3, while rebounding is not going to be an option.) JWash, if you still think size mattered in that situation?

Yes, the did defend it well, but it was an easily defendable play.

What are your thoughts about only have the one option?

Don't see the only one option. I saw them deny all the others.

I might would have considered Washington since he's a better shooter on the whole but you could make the case that Lubin's better under pressure and I'm kinda a believer in dancing with the one that brung you. As much as I like IJ, he was flatter than a plate of piss yesterday. Bottom line, we let them get in our heads at the end of the first half, regrouped, fought hard and just couldn't pull it off. I'm disappointed that we couldn't pull it off.

Frankly. if you had just told me the score yesterday morning, I'd have been relatively pleased that we played them that closely.

 

[finesse]

It would absolutely suck for JWit if they are held out of the tourney, and they turn down an NIT invitation, and this is his last game at UNC. He's made so many critical contributions to this program, yet he'll only be remembered by many for this mistake.

Nah, there was that three in the tournament last year as well. Withers has given us some good moments and has done much to make this season palatable but he has always made some bonehead plays.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Don't see the only one option. I saw them deny all the others.

I might would have considered Washington since he's a better shooter on the whole but you could make the case that Lubin's better under pressure and I'm kinda a believer in dancing with the one that brung you. As much as I like IJ, he was flatter than a plate of piss yesterday. Bottom line, we let them get in our heads at the end of the first half, regrouped, fought hard and just couldn't pull it off. I'm disappointed that we couldn't pull it off.

Frankly. if you had just told me the score yesterday morning, I'd have been relatively pleased that we played them that closely.

If you watch what Drake, EC, and VAL do after their initial movements, it's clear that there were no other actions on the play. VAL ran to the ball after he saw that RJ was being denied. (Surely the only other action on the play was not for VAL.)

Yes, IJ didn't have a great game yesterday (flatter than a plate of piss is freaking hilarious comment btw), but he's still a better option for a last second 3 than VAL. And, he'd most likely generate more gravity than VAL.

Regarding JWash or VAL, I kinda agree, but in that neither should have been in on that play.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Nah, there was that three in the tournament last year as well. Withers has given us some good moments and has done much to make this season palatable but he has always made some bonehead plays.

It wasn't a good shot, for sure. He's made some mistakes, for sure. Some folks seem to only point to them, rather than the contributions.

 

[Centerpiece]

Still a 50/50 chance Heels get in.
Played really well the last 10 games and the committee considers that - whether or not they’ll admit it.
It’ll boil down to other bubble teams and how they finish up.
Are there any possible bid stealers out there who can squeak in by upsetting a top team in a conference tourney?

 

[stankeylegjones]

Still a 50/50 chance Heels get in.
Played really well the last 10 games and the committee considers that - whether or not they’ll admit it.
It’ll boil down to other bubble teams and how they finish up.
Are there any possible bid stealers out there who can squeak in by upsetting a top team in a conference tourney?

I feel like the committee will say: "Yes, UNC was 8-2 over their last 10 games, but only two of them were against decent teams, and they lost them both." Then they'll bring up their q1 record. Whether right or wrong, that is what they'll use/say for the reason they left them out of the dance. The win by CSU definitely hurt their chances of making it. I'm curious to see what Bracket Matrix says once it updates after yesterday's games.

 

[SnoopRob]

I disagree about the play being fine. It was clear RJ was the only option. So, not only does HD have VAL in the game, presumably to set a screen, knowing that Duke is going to switch on all screens (at least involving RJ), but you also only have one option. HD had the wrong personnel in the game and no other option than RJ getting the ball. That's a relatively easy-to-defend play, as soon as EC moves away from the ball to screen with VAL, his defender switches off to deny RJ the pass as RJ comes to the ball.

I don't think that RJ was the "only" option, I certainly think he was the primary option.

We had RJ, Trimble (inbounder), Cadeau, Drake, & VAL in the game.

The play got VAL a reasonably decent, if contested, look. If Withers or Ian take that shot, we're probably pretty good with it as the outcome of the play.

If we'd have had Ian in there instead of VAL, I'm ok with what we did there.

Personally, i wish we'd have run something where RJ is the primary option, but we assume that dook will prevent him from getting the ball, so the play is designed to pull either EC's man or Ian's man onto RJ to free one of those two up to get the shot unless RJ somehow manages to get free. I also would have liked to see a bit more action for Drake to try to free him up headed to the corner.

 

[BillOfRights]

I feel like the committee will say: "Yes, UNC was 8-2 over their last 10 games, but only two of them were against decent teams, and they lost them both." Then they'll bring up their q1 record. Whether right or wrong, that is what they'll use/say for the reason they left them out of the dance. The win by CSU definitely hurt their chances of making it. I'm curious to see what Bracket Matrix says once it updates after yesterday's games.

Wake is a decent team, and the other two were against the #1 team in the country, and they lost by 3 on a neutral court.

If you have to do better than losing by 3 to the number one team on a neutral court to qualify, then it's gonna be a really small tournament

 

[duluoz]

The metrics can be fashioned to tell whatever story someone wants to tell. This is all going to come down to whether the individuals on that committee dislike Carolina or blue bloods at large, or whether they prioritize the value that a blue blood can bring to the viewership, especially as a First Four game, where viewership is typically much lower than opening Thursday.

From a business standpoint, and a pure basketball standpoint, it’s a pretty clear decision to include UNC. But the metrics can very easily be positioned to keep that from happening, if people have a bias against them. Representatives from smaller schools, Carolina haters, whoever they may be.

 

[stankeylegjones]

1. I don't think that RJ was the "only" option, I certainly think he was the primary option.

We had RJ, Trimble (inbounder), Cadeau, Drake, & VAL in the game.

The play got VAL a reasonably decent, if contested, look. If Withers or Ian take that shot, we're probably pretty good with it as the outcome of the play.

2. If we'd have had Ian in there instead of VAL, I'm ok with what we did there.

3. Personally, i wish we'd have run something where RJ is the primary option, but we assume that dook will prevent him from getting the ball, so the play is designed to pull either EC's man or Ian's man onto RJ to free one of those two up to get the shot unless RJ somehow manages to get free. I also would have liked to see a bit more action for Drake to try to free him up headed to the corner.

(I enumerated your post to make my response more clear.)

1. Given EC’s and Drake’s lack of movement after initially shows that there were no actions designed for them. They moved out of the way and stood there. I don’t think a specific action was designed for VAL, other than setting a screen. I think he ran to Seth after he saw that RJ was being denied the ball. Surely HD/staff didn’t design him getting a 3 as their second option. If so, it makes absolutely no sense at all. Also, I don’t think it was a decent look. It was a turnaround, fading away from the basket.

2. Yes, JWit or IJ taking that shot would have been better, which is why we both agree that the personnel was wrong.

3. I completely agree with you, but maybe not the exact same type of action. Something else should have been drawn up.

Did this play cost them the game, definitely not. But, it was not a good job done by HD/staff, and points to one of my biggest gripes about them - there are many times when they do things that make it harder on the players to achieve success.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Wake is a decent team, and the other two were against the #1 team in the country, and they lost by 3 on a neutral court.

If you have to do better than losing by 3 to the number one team on a neutral court to qualify, then it's gonna be a really small tournament

I agree with you. But, playing the devil's advocate, I can see them saying that, and they would have weight in that response. They could also look at Duke being without their best player, a NPOT candidate, and another really good player.

EDIT: I just read the post by duluoz. That is what I'm trying to say, they do a much better job of saying it.

 

[SnoopRob]

1. Given EC’s and Drake’s lack of movement after initially shows that there were no actions designed for them. They moved out of the way and stood there. I don’t think a specific action was designed for VAL, other than setting a screen. I think he ran to Seth after he saw that RJ was being denied the ball. Surely HD/staff didn’t design him getting a 3 as their second option. If so, it makes absolutely no sense at all. Also, I don’t think it was a decent look. It was a turnaround, fading away from the basket.

I'm not sure if there were no actions designed for EC or Drake or if they just didn't give maximum effort once the play started to fall apart. (To me, this is a constant question under HD...are the play designs bad or is our execution just often bad? I think that both is a significant issue and aren't sure which is the case here.

I don't know that VAL was the second option, but I do think he was the "release valve" option. And, unfortunately, that's where we ended up having to go.

A reasonably open, turn-around 3 is not a terrible result in that situation. I'm fairly confident it wasn't designed to be a fadeaway shot, but that's likely a result of being VAL taking the shot, given he's not a 3-point shooter of any note or intent.

In a lot of ways, the play reminds me of the end of the BC game in the NCAAT in 1994. The play call seems to leave something to be desired, the players didn't seem to do a great job running the play, and we ended up with a big taking a shot that probably wasn't a primary or secondary option...and in both cases the shot was missed in very sad fashion.

 

[BillOfRights]

8 bubble teams. Pick 4, or rank them.

 

[duluoz]

Did this play cost them the game, definitely not. But, it was not a good job done by HD/staff, and points to one of my biggest gripes about them - there are many times when they do things that make it harder on the players to achieve success.

I’ve been on Cadeau most of the season, so I’m biased here. But in hindsight if we have to pick one single play that cost them the game, way more so than the lane violation, for me it’s that stupid f’ing foul very early in the game on the Evans desperation 25 footer with the shot clock expiring that has almost zero chance of going in… yet Cadeau inexplicably and totally unnecessarily slides underneath him to give away 2 free points (Evans missed one of the FTs) when he should’ve just cleared out of his way. Instead of a nothing play, dook gets 2 free points and Cadeau gets his first foul. And he’s dumbfounded as usual, because in two full years of college basketball he still hasn’t learned you have to give a shooter a place to land. Sullivan literally had to explain it to him.

Minutes later he picks up his second foul on a reach-in, and then he’s anchored to the bench and we’ve barely hit the 16 min mark. And we all know how the next 16 mins of that half went.

He’s like that little kid in the back seat whose mom has to tell him to stop touching his sister and leave her alone, so he puts his finger one millimeter from his sister’s face and says “What! I’m not touching her! You said don’t touch her!” He’s *constantly* pushing the limits in a bad way and then acts totally confused when he gets punished for it. And he never learns. Maddening.

 

[UNCatTech]

I guess only the comeback speaks to coaching then. And like I said, this has been a problem all season against quality teams.

Did the coach tell them to shoot 18% in the first half? I guess that means someone must have told coach to tell them to shoot better at half time. Wow, so all he really needs to do is tell them to shoot better the whole game.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I'm not sure if there were no actions designed for EC or Drake or if they just didn't give maximum effort once the play started to fall apart. (To me, this is a constant question under HD...are the play designs bad or is our execution just often bad? I think that both is a significant issue and aren't sure which is the case here.

I don't know that VAL was the second option, but I do think he was the "release valve" option. And, unfortunately, that's where we ended up having to go.

A reasonably open, turn-around 3 is not a terrible result in that situation. I'm fairly confident it wasn't designed to be a fadeaway shot, but that's likely a result of being VAL taking the shot, given he's not a 3-point shooter of any note or intent.

In a lot of ways, the play reminds me of the end of the BC game in the NCAAT in 1994. The play call seems to leave something to be desired, the players didn't seem to do a great job running the play, and we ended up with a big taking a shot that probably wasn't a primary or secondary option...and in both cases the shot was missed in very sad fashion.

You might be right, but I have a hard time believing they wouldn’t give maximum effort in that situation.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I’ve been on Cadeau most of the season, so I’m biased here. But in hindsight if we have to pick one single play that cost them the game, way more so than the lane violation, for me it’s that stupid f’ing foul very early in the game on the Evans desperation 25 footer with the shot clock expiring that has almost zero chance of going in… yet Cadeau inexplicably and totally unnecessarily slides underneath him to give away 2 free points (Evans missed one of the FTs) when he should’ve just cleared out of his way. Instead of a nothing play, dook gets 2 free points and Cadeau gets his first foul. And he’s dumbfounded as usual, because in two full years of college basketball he still hasn’t learned you have to give a shooter a place to land. Sullivan literally had to explain it to him.

Minutes later he picks up his second foul on a reach-in, and then he’s anchored to the bench and we’ve barely hit the 16 min mark. And we all know how the next 16 mins of that half went.

He’s like that little kid in the back seat whose mom has to tell him to stop touching his sister and leave her alone, so he puts his finger one millimeter from his sister’s face and says “What! I’m not touching her! You said don’t touch her!” He’s *constantly* pushing the limits in a bad way and then acts totally confused when he gets punished for it. And he never learns. Maddening.

I wonder why he hasn’t learned that you have to give a shooter space to land, if he doesn’t know that.