As a 76 YO white Christian

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superrific said:
1. My take is somewhat derived from your discussion of Bart Ehrman. I mean, I had that take before, but what you posted was educational and clarifying.
2. I'm not trying to say anything about Judaism. Obviously, fundamentalist Jews do see their religion as one of revenge and behavior codes, but that's true of a lot of religions. What I was really talking about was the right-wing Christian take on the OT -- who clearly accept Paul and the other critics, and who are ignorant of the Talmud and Mishnah.
3. I think the problem here is my Jews For Jesus quip. I thought it was witty. Others, apparently, disagree. I think I should retire the line.
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Yea, it's fine...I know you're circumspect enough to take all it in.

I think the reason why the "Jews for Jesus" line rankles when used to describe legalistic Christians who want to impose their religion on everyone else, and for whom God is the angry, anal, super-ego of Zeus throwing thunderbolts at sinners, for whom heaven "stinks in his nose"...is that is *exactly* what Christians have been saying about Jews and Judaism since basically the very beginning. IOW, it recapitulates the theological line of 2,000 years of antisemism.

I think that's just why the line falls flat. The point you were really making, though, doesn't. It's a good point.
 
breepf said:
Lol wtf are you talking about. Do you mean "orthodox" or "ultraorthodox" Jews? As a whole, they certainly do not see their religion as one of revenge or behavior codes.
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Well, he might be talking about the zionist government of Israel, in which case...
 
TarSpiel said:
I've been struggling with this question ever since Trump got 83% of the white evangelical vote in 2016. And I got nothing. And I grew up white evangelical. And religious studies is, like, my job. Man.

I guess the thing that jumps out at me the most is that the word *white* does a lot of heavy lifting in this conversation.
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Yes, white does a lot of work there. But so does authoritarian family structure, which is not in any way commanded by Christianity but they think it is. Or rather, they assert that it is.

I read an article in 2017 somewhere, I think Slate, from someone who grew up in an evangelical household. She predicted that right-wingers were going to lose their shit about trans, because trans cuts at their most important belief: complementarity between the sexes -- complementarity being code for man makes the rules and women offer solace and emotional support. And thus does the sexism and misogyny of Trump fit their world view.

After all, that ad about women voting in secret didn't come out of nowhere. My wife's evangelical brothers (as did her parents) more or less assert their wives should adopt their political views and vote as they do. Maybe the wives are fully on board, either from the outset or via conflict, and anyway there's no a priori reason to think that the wives can't be every bit as politically white as their husbands.

Those ads did not seem to be effective, though.
 
breepf said:
Does part of the answer concern the emergence of a "Christian" market? Christian booksellers in the 80s didn't want to sell books targeted to Episcopalians or Presbyterians or Lutherans. And so a style of Christian consumerism emerged that drowned out finer doctrinal points. What we're left with is a Christian "culture" almost completely severed from any sense of traditions, teachings, etc.
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I don't know, but I know who I'd ask...a Jewish dude I went to grad school with at UNC who studied Christian evangelical consumer culture...one of the funniest, brightest people I've ever met. It's actually a really interesting question, and I might just ask him (he's a prof at University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point now)
 
TarSpiel said:
I don't know, but I know who I'd ask...a Jewish dude I went to grad school with at UNC who studied Christian evangelical consumer culture...one of the funniest, brightest people I've ever met. It's actually a really interesting question, and I might just ask him (he's a prof at University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point now)
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I'd love to hear his answer. I think I got the idea from Kristin Kobes Du Mez's book Jesus and John Wayne. She intimated such a possibility, but then went in another direction.
 
heelinhell said:
Trump is making American Christianity great again !

www.newyorker.com

American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

History, theology, and culture all contribute to the racist attitudes embedded in the white church.
www.newyorker.com www.newyorker.com
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Dr. Kenneth Miller, executive secretary of the New York City Mission Society says..."What we have to do is practice brotherhood every day and stop having the 11 o'clock hour on Sunday the most segregated hour of the week"
 
breepf said:
I'd love to hear his answer. I think I got the idea from Kristin Kobes Du Mez's book Jesus and John Wayne. She intimated such a possibility, but then went in another direction.
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I have to go teach now, but I'll reach out to him later this afternoon
 
TarSpiel said:
I think the reason why the "Jews for Jesus" line rankles when used to describe legalistic Christians who want to impose their religion on everyone else, and for whom God is the angry, anal, super-ego of Zeus throwing thunderbolts and sinners, for whom heaven "stinks in his nose"...is that is *exactly* what Christians have been saying about Jews and Judaism since basically the very beginning. IOW, it recapitulates the theological line of 2,000 years of antisemism.
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Thank you for that explanation. I will definitely retire the line. Here is its genesis for me, by the way.

I have an uncle -- my dad's sister's husband -- who has always been a conservative Lutheran. Went to Valpo; wife went to Valpo; everyone in his family has gone to Valpo. Anyway, about 15 years ago now, he started doing one of those genealogy projects and discovered that he had a Jewish ancestor on his father's side. I never spoke with him about this, so I don't know the exact details, but anyway he decided that he was part Jewish. Yes, I know, there are many many problems here, but anyway . . .

So instead of giving up his Christian heritage (which he shouldn't have done in any case), he decided to start his own ministry doing some bizarre blend of Christianity and Judiasm. My family didn't really get what was happening until his daughter visited my parents and youngest sibling for some holiday. Offered pork chops or ham, she declined, saying that pork isn't kosher so she can't eat them. My parents were like WTF? She did not, however, decline to drink the milk sitting on the same table as the meat and I'm guessing she knew basically nothing about kosher other than the pork thing. Then there was some other thing she did -- I don't remember, as I wasn't there and so I'm drawing on 15 year old hearsay -- that was pulled straight from the OT without any context or awareness of other related principles.

I thought to myself that he turned himself into a Jew For Jesus. Then he became virulently MAGA. Then he died in the pandemic because he wasn't vaccinated. Shame, really.
 
TarSpiel said:
I don't know, but I know who I'd ask...a Jewish dude I went to grad school with at UNC who studied Christian evangelical consumer culture...one of the funniest, brightest people I've ever met. It's actually a really interesting question, and I might just ask him (he's a prof at University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point now)
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If you're talking Shanny, I'd also be interested in his take. Good dude with open mind.
 
This is anecdotal, but my view is something has changed in the last few decades as it relates to Christianity in America. It has lurched towards fundamentalism or at least the bigots understanding of fundamentalism. The church I grew up in was a middle of the road Methodist congregation that was quite accepting. Our youth program was led by what could be described as a hippy kind of guy who loved the Grateful Dead. We had kids who were gay. This same congregation recently voted to disassociate themselves with the United Methodist Church over it's decision to be accepting of LGBTQ people.
 
4heels4evr said:
how can I justify the evangelical Christians voting for president who a judge has stated is guilty of Rape, tried to overthrow our constitutional government, and all the other stuff he has done and said about groups of people. How could a Gracious God allow this to happen with all the love of the Christian Right? HOW?
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You can't.

Although they will try to use the 'In The Bible God uses all kinds of people to do his will.'
 
breepf said:
Lol wtf are you talking about. Do you mean "orthodox" or "ultraorthodox" Jews? As a whole, they certainly do not see their religion as one of revenge or behavior codes.
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I'm not going to talk extensively about Judaism, as I'm not knowledgeable about the topic. "One of revenge" is not really a good way to put my point. But as we know, turn the other cheek is a Christian principle, and while many Jewish congregations (perhaps most) have adopted some version of the general idea, the most conservative sects generally have not. And you can see that in the way they seek to solve problems. They are big into Biblical justice. Never mind all of this. I take this back. What I said was not what I meant, and that's probably because I don't have a solid base of knowledge.

As for behavior codes, I mean -- that's what kosher is. And the ultraorthodox have a bunch of other rules whose origins I don't understand but are definitely behavior codes. Sex is not supposed to be about attraction, and thus the women intentionally make themselves ugly. They shave their heads in weird ways (and then wear wigs in public), and there are of course strict clothing rules, and the men have some odd requirements as well. This knowledge comes a friend of mine who subletted an apartment in Boro Park NY for a year, as well as an Israeli gf who I lived with for a year and a half. I'm not offering it as definitive proof, but that's my understanding at least.
 
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4heels4evr said:
how can I justify the evangelical Christians voting for president who a judge has stated is guilty of Rape, tried to overthrow our constitutional government, and all the other stuff he has done and said about groups of people. How could a Gracious God allow this to happen with all the love of the Christian Right? HOW?
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Part of what has always bothered me about Evangelicals is that the emphasis is on accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You do that-its all good-its good cause you will go to heaven Its basically about "me going to heaven because I accept ...." it has Nothing to do with how you treat people
 
Just ask any of the evangelical crowd that supports Trump, what specifically has he or his MAGA acolytes done legislatively that reflects the teachings of Jesus? Sit back and wait. Be prepared for OT answers. But ask them specially around the teachings of Jesus.
 
mpaer said:
Part of what has always bothered me about Evangelicals is that the emphasis is on accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You do that-its all good-its good cause you will go to heaven Its basically about "me going to heaven because I accept ...." it has Nothing to do with how you treat people
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I'd argue if you truly accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior it will be reflected in the way you treat others. There are plenty that say they've accepted him but their words are hollow based on their actions.
 
Batt Boy said:
Just ask any of the evangelical crowd that supports Trump, what specifically has he or his MAGA acolytes done legislatively that reflects the teachings of Jesus? Sit back and wait. Be prepared for OT answers. But ask them specially around the teachings of Jesus.
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People are not voting for Trump the man. They voted for his policies. They voted to end the radical lefts craziness. Just look at the lefts campaign strategy. Get all the Hollywood elites you can AFFORD (yes they paid out the butt for those endorsements) whereas Trump appealed to the middle class people at his rallies. The left forgot about the middle class and it showed in the voting. So no, many of the voters only voted for Trump because of the way the left is headed. Elon Musk was a Democrat and voted for Biden last time. He said the crazy far left agenda caused him to switch this election cycle.
The Democrats can't blame Trump for winning they have to blame themselves for losing. This politics board should be thread after thread bashing their own party and what's happening to it instead of knocking Trump. But hey, continue doing the same things you're doing and the Republicans will benefit from it at the ballot box.
 
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