As a 76 YO white Christian

[breepf]

I'm not going to talk extensively about Judaism, as I'm not knowledgeable about the topic. "One of revenge" is not really a good way to put my point. But as we know, turn the other cheek is a Christian principle, and while many Jewish congregations (perhaps most) have adopted some version of the general idea, the most conservative sects generally have not. And you can see that in the way they seek to solve problems. They are big into Biblical justice.

As for behavior codes, I mean -- that's what kosher is. And the ultraorthodox have a bunch of other rules whose origins I don't understand but are definitely behavior codes. Sex is not supposed to be about attraction, and thus the women intentionally make themselves ugly. They shave their heads in weird ways (and then wear wigs in public), and there are of course strict clothing rules, and the men have some odd requirements as well. This knowledge comes a friend of mine who subletted an apartment in Boro Park NY for a year, as well as an Israeli gf who I lived with for a year and a half. I'm not offering it as definitive proof, but that's my understanding at least.

You're right, you don't know anything about Judaism. Check out Lamentations 3:30 for a Jewish prefiguration of what you've claimed is a uniquely Christian view, whatever the fuck that would mean coming out of the mouth of Jesus, i.e. a Jew.

I'm ok with the claim that the 600-odd Jewish laws are "behavior codes" according to some view-from-nowhere sociology. But only insofar as that reductionism is complemented with an emic perspective of how those same orthodox Jews conceptualize what they're doing. Those laws aren't laws in the anti-Jewish ways that you've suggested in other posts--the mitzvot are a gift from God that enable Jews to commit acts of loving service, including all the niceties that you seem to think are the natural preserve of Christians and, no doubt, enlightened liberals such as yourself.

 

[mpaer]

(yes they paid out the butt for those endorsements)

This part I don't believe

 

[rodoheel]

This is not exactly new behavior for right-wing evangelicals. This is exactly who they've been for five decades now. They are all about morality for everyone else, but not for themselves. Their creepy pastors will constantly cheat on their wives and molest kids and women and when caught either lie or claim that the devil did it and they're saved, and then turn around and give screeching sermons about how the evil LGBTQ want to molest you all and lead you to the devil. They'll hold Trump up as the avatar of virtuosity and truth while calling the people who criticize him agents of the devil. There is no point wondering about when they're going to realize the contradictions and disingenuousness; they won't. it's just shocking that in today's age so many people - even acknowledging how dumb some of them are - can fall for such obvious BS. A great illustration of the old saw that religion is opiate for the masses; for moste of them it's just much easier to passively accept it all at face value than to risk applying a critical thought that might make them have doubts, misgivings, or an ounce of remorse about any of it.

 

[mpaer]

This is not exactly new behavior for right-wing evangelicals. This is exactly who they've been for five decades now. They are all about morality for everyone else, but not for themselves. Their creepy pastors will constantly cheat on their wives and molest kids and women and when caught either lie or claim that the devil did it and they're saved, and then turn around and give screeching sermons about how the evil LGBTQ want to molest you all and lead you to the devil. They'll hold Trump up as the avatar of virtuosity and truth while calling the people who criticize him agents of the devil. There is no point wondering about when they're going to realize the contradictions and disingenuousness; they won't. it's just shocking that in today's age so many people - even acknowledging how dumb some of them are - can fall for such obvious BS. A great illustration of the old saw that religion is opiate for the masses; for moste of them it's just much easier to passively accept it all at face value than to risk applying a critical thought that might make them have doubts, misgivings, or an ounce of remorse about any of it.

A lot of old men I have known "finally " accept Jesus Christ as their savior when the doc tells them they are going to die kind of soon Their whole life of being horrible no longer matters

 

[finesse]

All I know is that about 2% of evangelicals had ever heard of Cyrus eight years ago, but they all think he's the most important person in the Bible now.

Probably didn't know that he was one of Jefferson's favorite people and that what he did was not just for the Jews but everybody. He was also big about involving other people and other cultures .

Fwiw, only a fraction of Jews were in captivity in the first place. They were only there because ,as a vassal state, they rebelled and refused to pay tribute. That was not an endearing quality for the time and place. About half of the ruling class and hangers on got hauled off. By the time Cyrus took over, he probably was tired of them.

It did give the Jews a chance to compile the Books of Moses and other literature. You can see a lot of the influence of the various Babylonian legal codes, of which Hammurabi's is the best known, on the books of law.

 

[superrific]

You're right, you don't know anything about Judaism. Check out Lamentations 3:30 for a Jewish prefiguration of what you've claimed is a uniquely Christian view, whatever the fuck that would mean coming out of the mouth of Jesus, i.e. a Jew.

I'm ok with the claim that the 600-odd Jewish laws are "behavior codes" according to some view-from-nowhere sociology. But only insofar as that reductionism is complemented with an emic perspective of how those same orthodox Jews conceptualize what they're doing. Those laws aren't laws in the anti-Jewish ways that you've suggested in other posts--the mitzvot are a gift from God that enable Jews to commit acts of loving service, including all the niceties that you seem to think are the natural preserve of Christians and, no doubt, enlightened liberals such as yourself.

1. I didn't say uniquely Christian. But your point is well taken. What I know of fundamentalist Judiasm comes from the two people I mentioned above. That was a long time ago, and I might be misremembering and/or not understanding at the time.
2. This all came out of a stupid joke that I've taken back. I'm trying to use sardonic humor where possible to deal with the horror that awaits us. Evidently I am failing.
3. Kosher is a behavior code. That's not a view-from-nowhere sociology. That's just a fact. Maybe you are taking me to be saying much more than I am intending to say. Nothing about "behavior code" invalidates anything else you've described in that paragraph. The Marines also have a behavior code. That doesn't mean the behavior code is without purpose.
4. Look, I'm not anti-Jewish. What I am, apparently, is ignorant to the history of anti-Semitism. This stuff that you say has an antisemitic history -- well, I don't know about that history. I'm learning. I've never cared to learn much about the history of hate, to the extent that I can, because it is gross. But if someone tells me something and it's true, then I do my damnedest to remember and not to repeat that mistake.
5. And I am definitely NOT saying that those niceties are the natural preserve of Christians, especially not to the exclusion of others. In fact, isn't this discussion about how self-identified Christians are not doing those niceties?
6. One danger in a message board format is talking in generalities that sow confusion, because we tend not to use precise terminology. I am well aware of Jewish service. Trust me. I've stood next to Jews doing service many times. I was talking about the settlers in Israel, who definitely do not embrace what might be called loving service. And probably I wasn't clear about that.
7. I am not going to talk about this any more, because I'm not up to the task. Especially not today, apparently. Today my posting has been scattershot and I'm being unclear, as evidenced by the significant number of misunderstandings that have been generated.

 

[Batt Boy]

People are not voting for Trump the man. They voted for his policies. They voted to end the radical lefts craziness. Just look at the lefts campaign strategy. Get all the Hollywood elites you can AFFORD (yes they paid out the butt for those endorsements) whereas Trump appealed to the middle class people at his rallies. The left forgot about the middle class and it showed in the voting. So no, many of the voters only voted for Trump because of the way the left is headed. Elon Musk was a Democrat and voted for Biden last time. He said the crazy far left agenda caused him to switch this election cycle.
The Democrats can't blame Trump for winning they have to blame themselves for losing. This politics board should be thread after thread bashing their own party and what's happening to it instead of knocking Trump. But hey, continue doing the same things you're doing and the Republicans will benefit from it at the ballot box.

so none?

Love your neighbor. Do unto others. Blessed Peacemakers. Love your Enemies. Forgive. Eye of a needle. Greatest Commandment. Kingdom of God. Humility and Service.

none?

Still, I get what your'e saying. 99% of my family voted for Trump and they detest him. But even more so, they detest the ultra left, ultra woke agenda and moral superiority the left espouses. I didn't vote for him because I think he is a bad, bad person and his long term effects will be terrible for the planet. But I understand your take.

 

[korgguy1971]

Blessed Peacemakers.

 

[Milk and Cookies]

How could a Gracious God allow this to happen

{whisper} maybe because a god doesn't exist {whisper}

 

[TarSpiel]

If you're talking Shanny, I'd also be interested in his take. Good dude with open mind.

Yup, the very same.

How do you know him?

 

[TarSpiel]

Organized religion is the single greatest evil in the world today.

How is it more evil than greed?

 

[finesse]

How is it more evil than greed?

The deceit and perversion involved. People expect greed. Religion lurks in ambush.

 

[TarSpiel]

The deceit and perversion involved. People expect greed. Religion lurks in ambush.

So when it comes to human greed, organized religion is the only one who manifests it hypocritically?

Eh, I don't know man...I think you're trying too hard.

IMO it's just dumb to say organized religion is the most evil thing on the planet. It's a human thing, it has some good qualities and some bad ones, just like human nature in general.

 

[finesse]

So when it comes to human greed, organized religion is the only one who manifests it hypocritically?

Eh, I don't know man...I think you're trying too hard.

IMO it's just dumb to say organized religion is the most evil thing on the planet. It's a human thing, it has some good qualities and some bad ones, just like human nature in general.

You misread what I said. I was not addressing greed in religion at all. It's there but that's not religion, that's humans. I was saying that religion sets up people to be badly used in the guise of doing good entirely too often. It's hard to recognize, hard to defend against and hard to get other people to take it seriously. Greed is easier to recognize and avoid.

 

[TarSpiel]

religion sets up people to be badly used in the guise of doing good entirely too often.

I don't understand what you mean by that...can you explain?

 

[finesse]

I don't understand what you mean by that...can you explain?

Do you not think that the view of religion taught to the evangelicals that voted for Trump isn't badly using them? Do you think they don't believe that was a vote for good? The whole link between Protestants and white supremacy throughout the history of our country? The antisemitism of Christianity back through history? The Crusades? Isn't all of that using religion to manipulate people into hating others?

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily feel religion is the biggest evil. I was merely suggesting why I thought he might think it worse than greed. However, I don't right off the top of my head come up with something else with the same impact.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

how can I justify the evangelical Christians voting for president who a judge has stated is guilty of Rape, tried to overthrow our constitutional government, and all the other stuff he has done and said about groups of people. How could a Gracious God allow this to happen with all the love of the Christian Right? HOW?

Fox tells them the trial was a witch hunt.

Fox tells them that there was not an attempt to overthrow our government and it was just a peaceful demonstration by people whom the capitol police let on the capitol ground. (There is a tiny bit of truth there. Some of the barricades were opened by necessity as police couldn't hold back the mob.) I'm guessing that Fox never played the violent scenes from 1/6 - most of which were not evident when watching the attack on the capitol live. They showed the killing of Babbit but I doubt they showed what preceded it nor mentioned that members of congress were right behind that broken glass in the door.

These people live in a different world where they are constantly being misled.

Not an excuse. They chose to live in that world.

 

[TarSpiel]

Do you not think that the view of religion taught to the evangelicals that voted for Trump isn't badly using them?

Yea, but I think people do equally horrible things without organized religion.

It just seems a bit of a red herring to me to make organized religion out to be the *cause* of what's wrong with us.

 

[4heels4evr]

Fox tells them the trial was a witch hunt.

Fox tells them that there was not an attempt to overthrow our government and it was just a peaceful demonstration by people whom the capitol police let on the capitol ground. (There is a tiny bit of truth there. Some of the barricades were opened by necessity as police couldn't hold back the mob.) I'm guessing that Fox never played the violent scenes from 1/6 - most of which were not evident when watching the attack on the capitol live. They showed the killing of Babbit but I doubt they showed what preceded it nor mentioned that members of congress were right behind that broken glass in the door.

These people live in a different world where they are constantly being misled.

Not an excuse. They chose to live in that world.

this appears to be the best answer so far.
thx

 

[finesse]

Yea, but I think people do equally horrible things without organized religion.

It just seems a bit of a red herring to me to make organized religion out to be the *cause* of what's wrong with us.

Not making that claim. Claiming that it, and in part some of the counter reactions to religion, is a big cause, not an exclusive one. Fwiw, monotheism is the most noxious form since a clash between cultures became the death of a god and not the co-option. Having the only god instead of the strongest sure made that lesser and subhuman thing easier to swallow.