Biden pardons | BIDEN ISSUES PREEMPTIVE PARDONS - Family, Fauci, J6 Committee, Others

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rodoheel said:
Definitely makes it a lot easier for people to crow about the "Biden crime family" when he felt the need to preemptively pardon his family members. As with the Hunter pardon, I understand his actions as a human being but politically it's just playing right into Trump's hands. Now Trump doesn't have to worry about satisfying the parts of his bloc who actually wanted to prosecute these people, instead he can just say "oh I totally would have prosecuted them if not for the pardons, Joe knew they were guilty so he pardoned them."
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Yeah, I hear you, but unfortunately we don't live in the 90s anymore. The RW media has turned over half of Americans into a bloodthirsty cult whose only joy left in life is seeing Democrats in pain. Nothing is out of bounds for these people. And neither morals nor the conventional rules of law mean a thing to them. I would have done the same if I were Biden. And I'm not even a Democrat.
 
rodoheel said:
That's why I said I understand the pardons as a human being but dislike them politically. I would be tempted to protect my family in that situation too, and maybe I would do it. But candidly the future of our country is more important than whether members of Joe Biden's family are harassed by politically motivated prosecutions. And from a political perspective I think it would be much better to put Trump in the difficult position of pursuing what I suspect would largely be farcical and unpopular prosecutions of the extended Biden family, or having to explain why he isn't doing it. Now he is not only spared that dilemma, but can turn the whole thing to his advantage.

Asking someone to put their own family at risk for the sake of the country is not an easy ask, or really a fair one. As I said, I don't know what I would do in his position. But in terms of a trolley problem-type analysis, we should all at some level be able to put the interests of the country over the interests of our immediate family.
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If, at the end of the day or decade, these pardons would make a real difference in the future of our country, I might agree with you, but the reality is they almost certainly won’t.

Trump and the right-wing propaganda networks will make a big deal of them, but it’s not like Trump & company wouldn’t have tried to violate every rule of law if Biden hadn’t done this. It’s not like these pardons are the breaking point for Trump striving to be a dictator, he’s already made that clear. It’s not like this is the breaking point for Republicans to turn against the idea of democracy, they’ve already done that. And it’s not like this is the turning point where the US voter decides that authoritarian fascism is ok, because they’ve already done that.

In the long run, this will generate a lot of sound and fury, but won’t signify much at all. Trump was already going to grift and marginalize minorities and try to break the government, this affects none of that. All this does is add one more data point that Trump has broken our democracy and our government while hopefully providing some protection to a few innocent people along the way.
 
SnoopRob said:
If, at the end of the day or decade, these pardons would make a real difference in the future of our country, I might agree with you, but the reality is they almost certainly won’t.

Trump and the right-wing propaganda networks will make a big deal of them, but it’s not like Trump & company wouldn’t have tried to violate every rule of law if Biden hadn’t done this. It’s not like these pardons are the breaking point for Trump striving to be a dictator, he’s already made that clear. It’s not like this is the breaking point for Republicans to turn against the idea of democracy, they’ve already done that. And it’s not like this is the turning point where the US voter decides that authoritarian fascism is ok, because they’ve already done that.

In the long run, this will generate a lot of sound and fury, but won’t signify much at all. Trump was already going to grift and marginalize minorities and try to break the government, this affects none of that. All this does is add one more data point that Trump has broken our democracy and our government while hopefully providing some protection to a few innocent people along the way.
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I dunno. I continue to believe that the biggest long-term threat to our country is our population's steady descent into cynicism and belief that the system is rigged, all politicians lie, the government and the people who run it are corrupt, etc. It is these beliefs that lead people to ignore the true corruption and transition to oligarchy happening right in front of their faces, because they believe it's no different than what always happens. Biden can't fix that on his own - whatever he does is a drop in the bucket - but our country is absolutely doomed long-term unless we can get a majority of Americans to pull in the same direction, believe that government can and will be responsible and effective, and reject the false prophets that want to get rich leeching off the American population. And this is the kind of thing that makes that harder, not easier. It is easily misinterpreted by people who don't know as much about politics as an implicit admission of guilt.

In at least the short term, here's how I see it politically. I think one thing that Trump's first term showed is that there is still a group of people somewhere in the realm of "swing voters" (though I hate that term and believe it's misleading) for whom some things are too much. They may not have been swayed by Trump talking tough about immigration, but they were swayed by pictures and videos of innocent kids being forcibly separated from their parents and essentially detained. They may not have been swayed by talk about a "Muslim ban" but they were swayed by the images and stories of people being trapped in airports, unable to go anywhere or see loved ones because of a stupid and callous policy. They may not be particularly enamored of "Black Lives Matter" or Democratic street protest movements, but they didn't like seeing American protestors tear gassed and beat up in the streets so Trump could have a photo op.

These people may not care about rhetoric about "Prosecute Fauci" and the "Biden Crime Family," but they may care when they see a public servant like Fauci or random members of the Biden family harangued for illusory crimes. This may be a crappy way to look at things, but some of these people won't accept that Trump is what we say he is until they see the cruelty and the viciousness actually hurting someone. From a political perspective I think it would have been a huge mistake for Trump to actually have people like that prosecuted. Just like I think it will ultimately hurt Trump to have people like Kash Patel in charge, because he's eminently unlikeable and the more people see of him (and the crazy things he says and does) the more they'll hate.

It might be too late for our country either way; it's possible we're already too far gone and don't fully realize it yet. But I choose to believe we can still save ourselves and get the moral arc of the country (and hopefully the universe) titled back in the right direction without too much more misery and destruction and bloodshed. And to do that I think some people need to see the stark reality of the hate and revenge that Trump has promised in the abstract. if things are just a little bit worse for the next four years, a lot of people will just shrug their shoulders and continue to be convinced that it doesn't really matter who the president is.
 
rodoheel said:
I dunno. I continue to believe that the biggest long-term threat to our country is our population's steady descent into cynicism and belief that the system is rigged, all politicians lie, the government and the people who run it are corrupt, etc. It is these beliefs that lead people to ignore the true corruption and transition to oligarchy happening right in front of their faces, because they believe it's no different than what always happens. Biden can't fix that on his own - whatever he does is a drop in the bucket - but our country is absolutely doomed long-term unless we can get a majority of Americans to pull in the same direction, believe that government can and will be responsible and effective, and reject the false prophets that want to get rich leeching off the American population. And this is the kind of thing that makes that harder, not easier. It is easily misinterpreted by people who don't know as much about politics as an implicit admission of guilt.

In at least the short term, here's how I see it politically. I think one thing that Trump's first term showed is that there is still a group of people somewhere in the realm of "swing voters" (though I hate that term and believe it's misleading) for whom some things are too much. They may not have been swayed by Trump talking tough about immigration, but they were swayed by pictures and videos of innocent kids being forcibly separated from their parents and essentially detained. They may not have been swayed by talk about a "Muslim ban" but they were swayed by the images and stories of people being trapped in airports, unable to go anywhere or see loved ones because of a stupid and callous policy. They may not be particularly enamored of "Black Lives Matter" or Democratic street protest movements, but they didn't like seeing American protestors tear gassed and beat up in the streets so Trump could have a photo op.

These people may not care about rhetoric about "Prosecute Fauci" and the "Biden Crime Family," but they may care when they see a public servant like Fauci or random members of the Biden family harangued for illusory crimes. This may be a crappy way to look at things, but some of these people won't accept that Trump is what we say he is until they see the cruelty and the viciousness actually hurting someone. From a political perspective I think it would have been a huge mistake for Trump to actually have people like that prosecuted. Just like I think it will ultimately hurt Trump to have people like Kash Patel in charge, because he's eminently unlikeable and the more people see of him (and the crazy things he says and does) the more they'll hate.

It might be too late for our country either way; it's possible we're already too far gone and don't fully realize it yet. But I choose to believe we can still save ourselves and get the moral arc of the country (and hopefully the universe) titled back in the right direction without too much more misery and destruction and bloodshed. And to do that I think some people need to see the stark reality of the hate and revenge that Trump has promised in the abstract. if things are just a little bit worse for the next four years, a lot of people will just shrug their shoulders and continue to be convinced that it doesn't really matter who the president is.
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The people that these pardons matter to are lost to their prejudices anyway. I see nothing in either party that is worth Biden martyring his family for. Anybody this discourages isn't thoughtful or reasonable enough to worry about.
 
finesse said:
The people that these pardons matter to are lost to their prejudices anyway. I see nothing in either party that is worth Biden martyring his family for. Anybody this discourages isn't thoughtful or reasonable enough to worry about.
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Maybe I'm not being clear. it's not that many persuadable people will think the pardons are a big deal. It's that many persuadable people will see the pardons as just further evidence that government is bad, everyone is corrupt, etc. and just as importantly (maybe more so) don't get to see the cruelty and vindictiveness of Trump on full display.

And I'm not really sure "martyred" is the right word. These people aren't going to be, like, executed, just (at most) subjected to very frustrating, expensive, and pointless prosecutions. Ones in which they would very likely be acquitted, if it even gets that far.
 
Batt Boy said:
a remorseless killer
www.nbcnews.com

Biden commutes life sentence of Leonard Peltier, Native American activist imprisoned for almost 50 years

The commutation will allow Peltier, who has long maintained his innocence in the killing of two FBI agents, to spend his remaining days in home confinement.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

shame on Joe
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He is a remorseless killer, but of Anna Mae Aquash, not the two FBI agents. He deserves to be in prison for things he did, not for things he didn't do.
 
Batt Boy said:
a remorseless killer
www.nbcnews.com

Biden commutes life sentence of Leonard Peltier, Native American activist imprisoned for almost 50 years

The commutation will allow Peltier, who has long maintained his innocence in the killing of two FBI agents, to spend his remaining days in home confinement.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

shame on Joe
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Many Native Americans (Lakota especially) view Peltier as being an activist (who fought corruption in Native American leadership and racism against Native Americans) denied a fair trial and he has long been the subject for clemency calls.

Still a tough decision, IMO. The FBI Agents were killed in a shootout and evidence suggested they had been executed at close range after initially being wounded in the shootout. He was also ultimately acquitted for attempted murder for an altercation with an off-duty police officer.

Another associate who was part of the group in the shootout claimed in 2005 that he, not Peltier, killed the agents.
 
I won't post all of Wray's letter, but I believe he was in prison justly:



"The Honorable Joseph R. Biden Jr.


President of the United States of America


Washington, DC


Dear Mr. President:


I write to share with you a letter I sent to the Acting Pardon Attorney in March 2022,


expressing my vehement and steadfast opposition to the commutation of Leonard Peltier’s


sentence. I hope these letters are unnecessary, and that you are not considering a pardon or


commutation. But on behalf of the FBI family, and out of an abundance of caution, I want to


make sure our position is clear: Peltier is a remorseless killer, who brutally murdered two of our


own–Special Agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams. Granting Peltier any relief from his


conviction or sentence is wholly unjustified and would be an affront to the rule of law.


On June 26, 1975, Jack and Ron were searching for a fugitive when Peltier and others


mowed them down in a barrage of gunfire. After the onslaught, Peltier approached the injured


young men and brutally executed them at close range. In the aftermath of the murders, Peltier


engaged in a violent flight from justice, firing shots at police officers as he eluded arrest and


burglarizing a home. Following his apprehension months later in Canada, Peltier said that if he


had known law enforcement officers were approaching, he would have “blow[n] [them] out of


[their] shoes.”1 After his trial and conviction for first-degree murder, Peltier participated in a


violent escape from federal prison, during which he and others opened fire on prison employees.


For nearly 50 years, no fewer than 22 federal judges, multiple parole boards, and six


presidential administrations have evaluated the evidence and considered Peltier’s arguments.


Each has reached the same conclusion: Peltier’s claims are meritless. and his convictions and


sentence must stand."
 
SnoopRob said:
On the flip side, do you let your family be harassed and possibly prosecuted for realistically nothing more than being related to you when the Trump propaganda network would vilify Joe Biden and his family anyway?

Again, these are not pardons that anyone should want to see, but Trump and his devotion to seeking retribution has made them necessary.
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Lol at such BS
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Yeah, complaining about Biden setting negative precedents after Trump 1.0 and now 2.0 is rich. Trump is wrecking pretty much every precedent and tradition set by his predecessors in many areas, and nearly all of what he's doing is negative, imo. If Biden wants to keep people like Fauci safe from being endlessly harassed by Trumpers until the poor man dies then so be it.
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You should never make another mention of morality again lest your hypocrisy forever be known with a capital H on your head.
 
nycfan said:

Biden pardons his family in final minutes in office​


Biden pardoned his brother, James Biden; James’ wife, Sara Jones Biden; his younger sister, Valerie Biden Owens; Owens’ husband, John Owens; and his other brother, Francis Biden.

"...“The issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken as an acknowledgment that they engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense,” Biden said in a press release.

He also pardoned Gerald Lundergan, the former chairman of the Kentucky Democratic Party, and former South Carolina Councilman Ernest Cromartie. The departing president also commuted the life sentence of Leonard Peltier, who was convicted of killing two FBI agents in 1975. ..."
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Whoa, I missed the Leonard Peltier news. That's something.
 
Not a fan of this, at all. It will only lead to many folks losing more faith in the system, and a feeling that everyone involved is corrupt and/or in it for themselves.
 
With these pardons Joe has shown that he isn’t just an old mindless man. He is now an old mindless pos of a man. Way to go out on such a low note Joe. May you and your family reap all the bad that you so richly deserve.
 
Callatoroy said:
With these pardons Joe has shown that he isn’t just an old mindless man. He is now an old mindless pos of a man. Way to go out on such a low note Joe. May you and your family reap all the bad that you so richly deserve.
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As have you with this post. May what you project be a mirror.
 
rodoheel said:
I dunno. I continue to believe that the biggest long-term threat to our country is our population's steady descent into cynicism and belief that the system is rigged, all politicians lie, the government and the people who run it are corrupt, etc. It is these beliefs that lead people to ignore the true corruption and transition to oligarchy happening right in front of their faces, because they believe it's no different than what always happens. Biden can't fix that on his own - whatever he does is a drop in the bucket - but our country is absolutely doomed long-term unless we can get a majority of Americans to pull in the same direction, believe that government can and will be responsible and effective, and reject the false prophets that want to get rich leeching off the American population. And this is the kind of thing that makes that harder, not easier. It is easily misinterpreted by people who don't know as much about politics as an implicit admission of guilt.

In at least the short term, here's how I see it politically. I think one thing that Trump's first term showed is that there is still a group of people somewhere in the realm of "swing voters" (though I hate that term and believe it's misleading) for whom some things are too much. They may not have been swayed by Trump talking tough about immigration, but they were swayed by pictures and videos of innocent kids being forcibly separated from their parents and essentially detained. They may not have been swayed by talk about a "Muslim ban" but they were swayed by the images and stories of people being trapped in airports, unable to go anywhere or see loved ones because of a stupid and callous policy. They may not be particularly enamored of "Black Lives Matter" or Democratic street protest movements, but they didn't like seeing American protestors tear gassed and beat up in the streets so Trump could have a photo op.

These people may not care about rhetoric about "Prosecute Fauci" and the "Biden Crime Family," but they may care when they see a public servant like Fauci or random members of the Biden family harangued for illusory crimes. This may be a crappy way to look at things, but some of these people won't accept that Trump is what we say he is until they see the cruelty and the viciousness actually hurting someone. From a political perspective I think it would have been a huge mistake for Trump to actually have people like that prosecuted. Just like I think it will ultimately hurt Trump to have people like Kash Patel in charge, because he's eminently unlikeable and the more people see of him (and the crazy things he says and does) the more they'll hate.

It might be too late for our country either way; it's possible we're already too far gone and don't fully realize it yet. But I choose to believe we can still save ourselves and get the moral arc of the country (and hopefully the universe) titled back in the right direction without too much more misery and destruction and bloodshed. And to do that I think some people need to see the stark reality of the hate and revenge that Trump has promised in the abstract. if things are just a little bit worse for the next four years, a lot of people will just shrug their shoulders and continue to be convinced that it doesn't really matter who the president is.
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It's too late to worry about the continued descent because we're there.

After 4 years of Trump - the insanity, the bigotry, the lies, the bullshit, the attempted overthrow of an election - and after a campaign where Trump continually doubled-down on all of these things and promised more of them plus retribution against his political enemies, the people either voted for him or stayed home in sufficient numbers that he was reelected. The American people have seen what Trump stands for and they decided they want it. It's going to get worse as Trump has plenty of time to do terrible things, but we're past the point where folks' primary worry should be stopping it from getting worse. The American electorate has already decided they want "worse".

There is no reason that political staffers - folks who went into public service to assist the operations of our country - and certainly no reason that the family of Joe Biden - folks who didn't run for office and did nothing but be related to Joe - should have to bear the brunt of Trump's desired retribution. There's no reason that these folks should have to face the anxiety, public humiliation, and potential financial ruin defending themselves against the bogus charges that Trump and his associates would fabricate. And there is no reason those folks should feel the burden of suffering this in some misguided idea that they can "save America" from Trump.

I agree that it can get worse and I hope that America can be saved, but there is no reason to allow these folks to be the target of a retribution campaign by Trump in hope that their undeserved suffering will be part of what hurts Trump. Part of what moral and courageous folks will have to do over the next 4 years (at the least) is stand up for those targeted by the Trump Administration in order to prevent such suffering, not leave certain folks twisting in the wind to hope that their suffering blows back on Trump in some way.
 
finesse said:
What an absolute lack of class on your part.
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Probably.

But he and his crime family can’t receive legal justice for doing the same things you and this board have accused trump of doing for years. Joe has set a precedent that is the lowest of lows so karma is a bitch. If trump decides to pardon his family I will say the same.
 
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