Daniel Penny Trial

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finesse said:
Why did it take that long for someone to get there? I expect that he had no plans of holding it for six minutes but how do you let go? I haven't followed the case and I have no idea why he felt the need to be involved but once he did get involved I don't see where he can change his mind and quit.
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Back in elementary school, I got in plenty of fights that involved headlocks. Never once did it cross my mind that I needed to keep my opponent in a headlock for six minutes until all life was squeezed from his body. At most, that is a quick maneuver and then you release.
 
StrangePackage said:
Please forgive my pedantry, but as someone who has handled cases involving strangulation and who recreationally strangles people, he was not in a headlock.

The technical term for what he used is a rear naked choke. A headlock is generally a transitional or control hold which does not constrict either the blood vessels of the neck or the airways. A rear naked choke is a blood choke which can, when implemented correctly, sufficiently constrict the blood vessels in the neck such that the victim loses consciousness within 10 seconds.

Anyone trained in any type of grappling recognizes that the hold that Penny used can cause permanent injury in less than a minute. He held on five times that long.
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Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense, which of course amplifies what I was saying (not that you disagreed).

There are crazy people on the subway every day of the week. If everyone acted as Penny did every time they were confronted by loud, threatening, mentally ill homeless people, there would be hundreds of deaths a week on the subway.

Again, I am not saying that what penny did crossed the line into criminality. But it was unreasonable and should not be blindly praised by the Right Wing echosphere that @Ramrouser listens to every day.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
Although I agree with Cal and SP, I've also seen many deranged people on the subway. It's very easy to believe that Neely put everyone in his proximity in apprehension of immediate danger, and that attempting to subdue him was reasonable. Choking him to death, not so much.
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Exactly. You've seen many deranged people on the subway. New Yorkers know how to deal with that. They don't engage. Penny decided to be a hero in a situation that in all likelihood didn't need a hero.
 
Calheel said:
Exactly. You've seen many deranged people on the subway. New Yorkers know how to deal with that. They don't engage. Penny decided to be a hero in a situation that in all likelihood didn't need a hero.
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Such certainty here. I’m a New Yorker and I can tell you firsthand, you don’t always know how to deal with this shit. Could it be that having been thousands of miles away at the time, you may not have it quite right?

This is from Gothamist which is credible journalism and about as far as you can get from right-wing reporting:

“Alethea Gittings has been yelled at, stood over and sexually accosted on the New York City subway. Those incidents have made her angry, she said in a Manhattan courtroom on Friday.

But when Jordan Neely boarded her uptown F train and started screaming on May 1, 2023, Gittings wasn’t angry. She was scared.

“When he came in, he was unbelievably off the charts,” Gittings told police at the Broadway-Lafayette Street station that day, according to body-camera footage played in court. “He scared the living daylights out of everybody.”

Gittings was one of several New Yorkers who were on the subway with Neely who took the witness stand this week at the criminal trial of Daniel Penny, a former Marine who is charged with killing Neely. As Neely shouted at passengers, Penny wrapped his arm around Neely, pulled him to the floor of the train car and kept him in a chokehold for about six minutes.

…

Like Gittings, several passengers told jurors they had witnessed other outbursts on the train before. But as they described their May 2023 subway ride with Neely and Penny, one witness after the next said this eruption was different.

“This was just another kind of scale. The desperation in his voice, the anger, the aggressiveness,” Dan Couvreur said as he described Neely’s demeanor on the train.

“I was pretty terrified,” he added. “My heart was beating.”

Lori Sitro, a native New Yorker who’s ridden the subway for 30 years, said she was on her way uptown with her then-5-year-old when Neely boarded their train and started “shouting in people’s faces” that he didn’t have water, didn’t have food, didn’t have a home and wanted to hurt people and go to the Rikers Island jail. She described Neely as “belligerent.”

“It was very erratic and unpredictable,” she said.

Sitro told jurors she pushed a stroller in front of her son to shield him.

“It’s not like you can take a 5-year-old and run to the next train. Five-year-olds don’t move very quickly,” she said. “I felt very relieved when Daniel Penny had stopped him from moving around.”

Penny’s attorney, Thomas Kenniff, latched onto this moment in his opening statementlast week, telling jurors Penny put Neely in a chokehold after he saw Neely moving toward the mother and child and saying, “I will kill.”

There was debate about whether Neely said that, as some heard it and others didn’t. Most approved of Penny intervening, but at least one or two did not.

But given all this, it’s at least possible that Penny was stepping in because he felt he had no choice but to help protect a mother and her 5 yr old, among others. And that he was better suited for the task than most others around. And not just some vigilante or racist or whatever, inserting himself and intervening where he had no business or reason to.
 
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duluoz said:
Such certainty here. I’m a New Yorker and I can tell you firsthand, you don’t always know how to deal with this shit. Could it be that having been thousands of miles away at the time, you may not have it quite right?

This is from Gothamist which is credible journalism and about as far as you can get from right-wing reporting:

“Alethea Gittings has been yelled at, stood over and sexually accosted on the New York City subway. Those incidents have made her angry, she said in a Manhattan courtroom on Friday.

But when Jordan Neely boarded her uptown F train and started screaming on May 1, 2023, Gittings wasn’t angry. She was scared.

“When he came in, he was unbelievably off the charts,” Gittings told police at the Broadway-Lafayette Street station that day, according to body-camera footage played in court. “He scared the living daylights out of everybody.”

Gittings was one of several New Yorkers who were on the subway with Neely who took the witness stand this week at the criminal trial of Daniel Penny, a former Marine who is charged with killing Neely. As Neely shouted at passengers, Penny wrapped his arm around Neely, pulled him to the floor of the train car and kept him in a chokehold for about six minutes.

…

Like Gittings, several passengers told jurors they had witnessed other outbursts on the train before. But as they described their May 2023 subway ride with Neely and Penny, one witness after the next said this eruption was different.

“This was just another kind of scale. The desperation in his voice, the anger, the aggressiveness,” Dan Couvreur said as he described Neely’s demeanor on the train.

“I was pretty terrified,” he added. “My heart was beating.”

Lori Sitro, a native New Yorker who’s ridden the subway for 30 years, said she was on her way uptown with her then-5-year-old when Neely boarded their train and started “shouting in people’s faces” that he didn’t have water, didn’t have food, didn’t have a home and wanted to hurt people and go to the Rikers Island jail. She described Neely as “belligerent.”

“It was very erratic and unpredictable,” she said.

Sitro told jurors she pushed a stroller in front of her son to shield him.

“It’s not like you can take a 5-year-old and run to the next train. Five-year-olds don’t move very quickly,” she said. “I felt very relieved when Daniel Penny had stopped him from moving around.”

Penny’s attorney, Thomas Kenniff, latched onto this moment in his opening statementlast week, telling jurors Penny put Neely in a chokehold after he saw Neely moving toward the mother and child and saying, “I will kill.”

There was debate about whether Neely said that, as some heard it and others didn’t. Most approved of Penny intervening, but at least one or two did not.

But given all this, it’s at least possible that Penny was stepping in because he felt he had no choice but to help protect a mother and her 5 yr old, among others. And that he was better suited for the task than most others around. And not just some vigilante or racist or whatever, inserting himself and intervening where he had no business or reason to.
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I’ve never disputed that Penny had the legal right to defend others. The ONLY legal question in this case was whether he went too far.

Obviously, I don’t know how much worse this particular outburst was than the average lunatic ranting on the subway. But I am fairly confident that it was not an unprecedented type of situation for the NY subway. The unprecedented thing was a six minute chokehold.
 
Calheel said:
Exactly. You've seen many deranged people on the subway. New Yorkers know how to deal with that. They don't engage. Penny decided to be a hero in a situation that in all likelihood didn't need a hero.
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No, I mean per @duluoz you are instantly calibrating whether you need to engage to save life and limb.
 
Calheel said:
I’ve never disputed that Penny had the legal right to defend others. The ONLY legal question in this case was whether he went too far.

Obviously, I don’t know how much worse this particular outburst was than the average lunatic ranting on the subway. But I am fairly confident that it was not an unprecedented type of situation for the NY subway. The unprecedented thing was a six minute chokehold.
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I don't get the logic. If he had grounds to legitimately intervene in protection of someone else and does, how and when does he disengage? He's greatly aggravated the assailant. Does he let him go, offer to shake hands and apologize? I don't get it. Seems to me like he's stuck with it. I still want to know where everybody else, especially official figures, was.
 
Calheel said:
Exactly. You've seen many deranged people on the subway. New Yorkers know how to deal with that. They don't engage. Penny decided to be a hero in a situation that in all likelihood didn't need a hero.
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Witnesses testified that they thought they were going to die the way Neely was acting, that crazy people on the subway isn't something new to them, but that day Neely had crossed the line into blatantly threatening passengers saying he doesn't care if he dies, etc. The 911 calls even openly state that Neely was trying to attack people on the subway and Penny was trying to protect the passengers.

This wasn't the average crazy person on the train interaction. Stop trying to buy into the media mob framing of it.
 
finesse said:
I don't get the logic. If he had grounds to legitimately intervene in protection of someone else and does, how and when does he disengage? He's greatly aggravated the assailant. Does he let him go, offer to shake hands and apologize? I don't get it. Seems to me like he's stuck with it. I still want to know where everybody else, especially official figures, was.
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i've seen a few people get choked out to pass out...to kill someone has got to take a commitment
 
AlbionAmerican said:
Witnesses testified that they thought they were going to die the way Neely was acting, that crazy people on the subway isn't something new to them, but that day Neely had crossed the line into blatantly threatening passengers saying he doesn't care if he dies, etc. The 911 calls even openly state that Neely was trying to attack people on the subway and Penny was trying to protect the passengers.

This wasn't the average crazy person on the train interaction. Stop trying to buy into the media mob framing of it.
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Yeah these crazies also shouldn't be able to act like that around people... I blame the cities.

I think the choker probably snapped, but without video, it will be hard to convict... show someone to death means you are completely in control the situation situation and lost regards to life.

I wouldn't send that guy to jail, but we can't have randoms out here playing executioner.

This is the city and the bum's fault ultimately imo...send him home. Let him get away with this one...after the fear of jail.
 
thebruinbleedstarheelblue said:
i've seen a few people get choked out to pass out...to kill someone has got to take a commitment
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That is not the point. Why did he need/was allowed to hold him like that for six minutes?

I'd assume that a Marine in control of someone else could kill them in a lot less than six minutes if that was a goal so I don't get the commitment comment.
 
AlbionAmerican said:
Witnesses testified that they thought they were going to die the way Neely was acting, that crazy people on the subway isn't something new to them, but that day Neely had crossed the line into blatantly threatening passengers saying he doesn't care if he dies, etc. The 911 calls even openly state that Neely was trying to attack people on the subway and Penny was trying to protect the passengers.

This wasn't the average crazy person on the train interaction. Stop trying to buy into the media mob framing of it.
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BLM/Left doesn’t want to hear this. Penny was a white man vigilante who targeted and murdered a black man for being “loud.”

Did you watch the post trial press conference by BLM?
 
thebruinbleedstarheelblue said:
Yeah these crazies also shouldn't be able to act like that around people... I blame the cities.

I think the choker probably snapped, but without video, it will be hard to convict... show someone to death means you are completely in control the situation situation and lost regards to life.

I wouldn't send that guy to jail, but we can't have randoms out here playing executioner.

This is the city and the bum's fault ultimately imo...send him home. Let him get away with this one...after the fear of jail.
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I too blame the cities, there's plenty of problems to go around, however the fact is there's a lot of unstable people in NYC. I lived there for a period of time and once had a very scary interaction with some whacked out dude on the street who nearly attacked me. If in that moment, someone came to my assistance to hold the guy down, the last thing I'd be doing is saying the guy helping me is playing executioner.
 
finesse said:
I don't get the logic. If he had grounds to legitimately intervene in protection of someone else and does, how and when does he disengage? He's greatly aggravated the assailant. Does he let him go, offer to shake hands and apologize? I don't get it. Seems to me like he's stuck with it. I still want to know where everybody else, especially official figures, was.
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You think this dude was still even coherent after 2-3 minutes? Make no mistake, he choked ALL the life out of him.

If you saw that in a street fight, regardless of fault, people would be screaming or intervening...its just that the crazy dude created an unsympathetic audience/jury for himself.
 
finesse said:
I don't get the logic. If he had grounds to legitimately intervene in protection of someone else and does, how and when does he disengage? He's greatly aggravated the assailant. Does he let him go, offer to shake hands and apologize? I don't get it. Seems to me like he's stuck with it. I still want to know where everybody else, especially official figures, was.
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There are any number of other ways to restrain someone. Even more when they're unconscious.

This is analogous to shooting someone to stop a crime. If you subsequently walk up and shoot them again while they're bleeding on the ground, you're probably going to be charged with homicide.
 
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