“Eat the Rich” memes spread, but is it a political movement?

[Callatoroy]

Largely agree. I think there is some room for religious Democrats to do faith-based messaging a la Raphael Warnock as super as suggested. This can exist under the same umbrella as an overall economic/class focused message, IMO.

Your earlier comments were interesting to me. You feel that the dem party needs to shift more to the Bernie / AOC mindset? Or am I mischaracterizing that?

 

[Callatoroy]

I hope that Callatoroy and everyone has the greatest Christmas ever. I hope that they are right that trump simply lied about everything and doesn't destroy the country.

Yes, they are completely correct, trump won. (Finally, beat someone in actual votes on his third try)

But, 2,288,383 or 1.5% of the voters, is not a mandate or an ass kicking in any way. It's not even a top 10 in margin.

I mean, Nixon won by 23%, Reagan by 18%, Clinton by 8%, Bush 1 by 7%, Obama by 7%, Carter by 2%, Trump (2024) 1.5%, trump (2016) -2%.

We all have different things we take comfort in. Glad you found yours and will sleep well wrapped in that knowledge. Hope Santa is good to you and brings you and your family all the things you wished for.

 

[Centerpiece]

 

[Paine]

Your earlier comments were interesting to me. You feel that the dem party needs to shift more to the Bernie / AOC mindset? Or am I mischaracterizing that?

Yes, in terms of an economic populist message.

AOC recently gave an interview where she talked about the Democratic Party needing to shift from an identity focused message to a class/economic focused message. She said she is willing to work with anyone to advance legislation that will help working people.

Bernie, for his part, has always focused on that. The 2020 primary forced a lot of Democrats to the far left side on identity issues, even Bernie. The reasons for this are too many to talk about here, but we know that dynamic happened.

In her race for Oversight chair, AOC ended up getting a lot more votes than anyone would expect from a relatively young congressperson. Her support for Oversight was, interestingly, across the ideological spectrum in the Democratic Party.

Take someone like Pat Ryan, for example. He’s a congressman from a purple district in NY. He outperformed Harris by more than any other purple district Democrat, IIRC. He campaigned on economic populism while also being “tough” on the border. He supported AOC for oversight chair and went to bat for her.

Pat Ryan, AOC, Raphael Warnock. That’s the future of the Democratic coalition. The agreement amongst these factions will be a focus on economic populism. They will still advocate for other issues based on the existing constituencies, of course.

You mention liking Jeff Jackson. He fits firmly under this umbrella. Ryan is very similar to him.

Issues | Congressman Pat Ryan

patryan.house.gov

 

[Paine]

No, Economic Populism Did Not Lose This Election

Over the course of her campaign, with all the wrong people in her ear, Kamala Harris rejected the type of economic populism that could have salvaged last month’s elections.

jacobin.com

 

[Calheel]

It's beyond time we begin talking about so many of our issues in terms of class, rather than religion, race or other kinds of identity politics.

You can talk class all you want, but the studies and voting patterns have shown time and time again that religion and race (not to mention rural/urban, democrat/republican, etc.) are much stronger identities than class in America. Poor people, generally speaking, do not feel any kinship with other poor people in this country. The poor rural whites (and the cosplaying rural whites from the suburbs) feel much, much more kinship with Trump than the poor racial minorities in the cities.

 

[Callatoroy]

Yes, in terms of an economic populist message.

AOC recently gave an interview where she talked about the Democratic Party needing to shift from an identity focused message to a class/economic focused message. She said she is willing to work with anyone to advance legislation that will help working people.

Bernie, for his part, has always focused on that. The 2020 primary forced a lot of Democrats to the far left side on identity issues, even Bernie. The reasons for this are too many to talk about here, but we know that dynamic happened.

In her race for Oversight chair, AOC ended up getting a lot more votes than anyone would expect from a relatively young congressperson. Her support for Oversight was, interestingly, across the ideological spectrum in the Democratic Party.

Take someone like Pat Ryan, for example. He’s a congressman from a purple district in NY. He outperformed Harris by more than any other purple district Democrat, IIRC. He campaigned on economic populism while also being “tough” on the border. He supported AOC for oversight chair and went to bat for her.

Pat Ryan, AOC, Raphael Warnock. That’s the future of the Democratic coalition. The agreement amongst these factions will be a focus on economic populism. They will still advocate for other issues based on the existing constituencies, of course.

You mention liking Jeff Jackson. He fits firmly under this umbrella. Ryan is very similar to him.

Issues | Congressman Pat Ryan

patryan.house.gov

Ok, give me examples of economic populism as it would come from bernie and aoc.

 

[Callatoroy]

You can talk class all you want, but the studies and voting patterns have shown time and time again that religion and race (not to mention rural/urban, democrat/republican, etc.) are much stronger identities than class in America. Poor people, generally speaking, do not feel any kinship with other poor people in this country. The poor rural whites (and the cosplaying rural whites from the suburbs) feel much, much more kinship with Trump than the poor racial minorities in the cities.

race leads right back to identity politics. That is a weakness in the left because that is inherent in their mindset. It permeates everything they focus on. At least it seems that way to me, especially from the aoc and bernies of the left.

 

[Paine]

Ok, give me examples of economic populism as it would come from bernie and aoc.

Literally listen to any speech by them.

From AOC’s speech at the DNC this year:

“You cannot love this country if you only fight for the wealthy and big business. To love this country is to fight for its people, all people, working people, every day Americans like bartenders and factory workers, and fast food cashiers who punch a clock and are on their feet all day in some of the toughest jobs out there.”

And Bernie’s:

“Brothers and sisters, bottom line, we need an economy that works for all of us, not just the billionaire class. My fellow Americans, when 60% of our people live paycheck to paycheck, the top 1% have never ever had it so good. And these oligarchs, these oligarchs tell us we shouldn’t tax the rich, the oligarchs tell us we shouldn’t take on price gouging, we shouldn’t expand Medicare to cover dental, hearing and vision, and we shouldn’t. Social security benefits for struggling seniors.

Well, I’ve got some bad news for them. That is precisely what we are going to do. And we’re going to win this struggle because this is precisely what the American people want from their government. And my friends, at the very top of that to-do list is the need to get big money out of our political process. Billionaires in both parties should not be able to buy elections, including primary elections. For the sake of our democracy, we must overturn the disastrous Citizens United Supreme Court decision and move toward public funding of elections. And let me tell you what else we must do, we need to join the rest of the industrialized world and guarantee healthcare to all people as a human right, not a privilege.“

 

[finesse]

race leads right back to identity politics. That is a weakness in the left because that is inherent in their mindset. It permeates everything they focus on. At least it seems that way to me, especially from the aoc and bernies of the left.

The Christian Right is the most powerful and largest identity group in the nation.

 

[Callatoroy]

Literally listen to any speech by them.

I get generalities out of political speeches. Can you provide 2 simple examples (not trying to get you hung up in a pissing match). The concept of economic populism from democratic socialists seems completely contradictory to me. So I may not be understanding your comments as you intend.

 

[Paine]

I get generalities out of political speeches. Can you provide 2 simple examples (not trying to get you hung up in a pissing match). The concept of economic populism from democratic socialists seems completely contradictory to me. So I may not be understanding your comments as you intend.

I edited my post to include some comments from both of them that encapsulate what I’m talking about. The economic policies of Sanders and AOC are overwhelmingly popular with the American public.

Two specific examples:

Higher taxes on the wealthy
Expanded Medicaid and Medicare

I posted this resource for you earlier but think it got lost: Left-wing populism - Wikipedia

 

[TarSpiel]

You can talk class all you want, but the studies and voting patterns have shown time and time again that religion and race (not to mention rural/urban, democrat/republican, etc.) are much stronger identities than class in America. Poor people, generally speaking, do not feel any kinship with other poor people in this country. The poor rural whites (and the cosplaying rural whites from the suburbs) feel much, much more kinship with Trump than the poor racial minorities in the cities.

That's because the wealthy and powerful realize how dangerous it would get for them if people did *not* focus on race, religion, etc, and focused on class instead.

 

[Callatoroy]

I edited my post to include some comments from both of them that encapsulate what I’m talking about. The economic policies of Sanders and AOC are overwhelmingly popular with the American public.

Two specific examples:

Higher taxes on the wealthy
Expanded Medicaid and Medicare

I posted this resource for you earlier but think it got lost: Left-wing populism - Wikipedia

Thank you for the link.

"You cannot love this country if you only fight for the wealthy and big business. To love this country is to fight for its people, all people, working people, every day Americans like bartenders and factory workers, and fast food cashiers who punch a clock and are on their feet all day in some of the toughest jobs out there.”

This is what I'm talking about. What does that even mean? That type of comment is made by almost every politician on both sides in every election. Its just hollow words at this point. Like "we've got to improve education". It means nothing without definition and details. You mentioned increasing taxes on the rich and expanding medicare/medicaid. One immediately brings to mind class warfare and one socialized medicine. To me dems take that as a badge of honor. Personally I think they would be more effective in talking about those types of issues in smaller bites that when taken as a whole equates to higher taxes on the rich without having to appear as though they are waging class warfare. I don't think they can tear themselves away from that though because their identities are tied up in being social justice warriors.

 

[TarSpiel]

AOC recently gave an interview where she talked about the Democratic Party needing to shift from an identity focused message to a class/economic focused message.

I didn't hear that speech, but I agree 100%

I'm getting really tired of talking about "intersectional identities." Let's talk about what unites us. For example, trying to pay our friggin rents and mortgages.

 

[Callatoroy]

The Christian Right is the most powerful and largest identity group in the nation.

Its so big and diverse that it makes it hard to target with specifics

 

[finesse]

Its so big and diverse that it makes it hard to target with specifics

You have to be kidding. They're as diverse as different brands of white bread.

 

[Callatoroy]

You have to be kidding. They're as diverse as different brands of white bread.

Not kidding at all. The Christian right is made up of old and young, all races and nationalities, women and men, very religious and less religious. You can't target that with identity politics unless your message is anti-religion.

 

[finesse]

Not kidding at all. The Christian right is made up of old and young, all races and nationalities, women and men, very religious and less religious. You can't target that with identity politics unless your message is anti-religion.

And they all believe in the same heresies. That's the common thread, well, along with their urge to hold everybody else but themselves up to their "moral" code.

 

[Paine]

I didn't hear that speech, but I agree 100%

I'm getting really tired of talking about "intersectional identities." Let's talk about what unites us. For example, trying to pay our friggin rents and mortgages.

I don’t remember the exact timestamp but it’s towards the end of this interview.