Harris/Walz Catch-All | Kamala blitz in closing stretch

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SnoopRob said:
There are no Democratic positions/policies that drive people to Trump.

To be sure, they did so, in part, in reaction to the modern Democratic Party, but it was wholly a choice the voters of the Republican Party made and was in no way, shape, or form forced upon them by anything Democrats did.
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Let me add to this point. The reason for Trump's emergence was the collapse of the traditional GOP bullshit. Liberals always knew that the old GOP mantras about trickle down and pugilist foreign policy and deregulation were failed ideas and would lead to disaster eventually. And the disaster happened in 2008. And then the racists and the like realized that the traditional GOP folks actually didn't have their best interests in mind. But instead of joining with Dems, they went all-fucking-in with Trump.

Now they can't admit that they fucked up, because it was the ultimate stupidity. Sure George W Bush didn't actually give a shit about the soldiers he sent to die in Iraq, but he at least pretended. Somehow these morons thought Donald Trump cared about them. When it was clear that he didn't, they couldn't bring themselves to admit that the liberals were right. They couldn't bring themselves to admit that they were the stupidest gaggle of voters in the entire history of the United States. So now they draw superhero memes and pretend that God sent Trump for mysterious reasons, because they can't defend the actual man.
 
nycfan said:


When indeed?
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I've never seen Obama get that emotional, except for that funeral in South Carolina.

You can tell how deeply it hurts him to find himself saying on a public stage that it's not OK to call human beings -- let alone fellow citizens -- vermin. One would think that would not be necessary, and yet.

And Obama knows that Trump was a backlash to him. Not because of anything Obama did, but because of who he is. And that's got to piss Barack off as well. It pisses me off to an extraordinary degree, and I'm sure it's far more hurtful to him personally.

One could argue that the country would be better off had HRC won the primary in 08. She would have been elected because McCain was never going to survive the market crash. And maybe we'd get some of the same reaction from having a female president, but I doubt it. It was the black person who set the crazies on this course. Of course, this is a lamentation, not a regret. We did the right thing in 08. America did the right thing. And now America is suffering from a plague of ignorance and hate because of it.
 
SnoopRob said:
Nothing specific, except that we know parties change in both big and small ways over time.

Simply think "the Democratic party since 2008".
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Right. In my mind, somewhere between 2008 and the end of Obama's second term, the Democratic Party, whether the label is fair or not, became associated with many "new" things that they probably hadn't been associated with previously: wokeness, cancel culture, drag queen story hour, men in women's bathrooms, etc. And you had some old things that become more visible: softness on crime and the border. I say "whether the label is fair or not" because social media has created an environment where broad-brush generalizations are the norm. If one politician in Minnesota openly advocates for completely getting rid of police, then "Democrats" in general want to get rid of police.

Do you believe that those things have anything to do with the rise of Trump?
 
ZenMode said:
Right. In my mind, somewhere between 2008 and the end of Obama's second term, the Democratic Party, whether the label is fair or not, became associated with many "new" things that they probably hadn't been associated with previously: wokeness, cancel culture, drag queen story hour, men in women's bathrooms, etc. And you had some old things that become more visible: softness on crime and the border. I say "whether the label is fair or not" because social media has created an environment where broad-brush generalizations are the norm. If one politician in Minnesota openly advocates for completely getting rid of police, then "Democrats" in general want to get rid of police.

Do you believe that those things have anything to do with the rise of Trump?
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One thing that happened in that time period certainly did.

Come On What GIF by MOODMAN
 
superrific said:
Since those things post-dated Trump, I'd say no.
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Trans/Drag queen may have been post 2012, but Wokeness, which was directly associated with, among other things, cancel culture and constant accusations of racism, happened during Obama's second term.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree. The Democratic party also started doling out accusations of racism like it was candy on Halloween.
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So, you agree that the right turned to a revanchist troglodyte like Trump largely because it was so vexed by having a black man in the Oval Office for eight years, but you're also critical of Democrats for calling that racist? Interesting.
 
superrific said:
Now they can't admit that they fucked up, because it was the ultimate stupidity. Sure George W Bush didn't actually give a shit about the soldiers he sent to die in Iraq, but he at least pretended. Somehow these morons thought Donald Trump cared about them. When it was clear that he didn't, they couldn't bring themselves to admit that the liberals were right. They couldn't bring themselves to admit that they were the stupidest gaggle of voters in the entire history of the United States. So now they draw superhero memes and pretend that God sent Trump for mysterious reasons, because they can't defend the actual man.
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I wholly disagree with this. I think it's very important we not make cartoon characters out of a group of people, that's an early step in dehumanizing them.

I would say they think that Trump cares about them more than Dems care about them. Trump has clearly heard them and what they are seeking from the government. And he promises them those things. You and I know he's full of shit with the vast majority of those promises, but in their mind it's better than nothing. He also followed through on some of those promises...such as appointing SCOTUS justices to overturn RvW, taking drastic steps at the border, trying to keep the folks they want to be second-class citizens as second-class citizens, and enacting tariffs to protect American manufacturing. While not nearly enough to make a difference in their day-to-day lives, it is more than they feel the Dems offer them.

The other thing that Trump does better than Dems or other Pubs is making MAGA folks feel special. He continually points to them as "Real Americans" and holds them up as the "best" or "true" part of America. Now, these folks aren't so stupid that they don't realize that things aren't going their way. They know that many of their communities aren't doing well and that a lot of rural red areas aren't thriving. But Trump not only tells them it's not their fault, but that they shouldn't have to do anything to address these issues. He tells them that America owes them and that the country should be the one to fix the issues facing their areas. You and I know that there is almost no chance of this happening on a grand scale, but they respond to it by preferring Trump's promises to other potential solutions.
 
lawtig02 said:
So, you agree that the right turned to a revanchist troglodyte like Trump largely because it was so vexed by having a black man in the Oval Office for eight years, but you're also critical of Democrats for calling that racist? Interesting.
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I'm not saying that at all. Obviously there are racists in the country, but not 72 million... or however many votes Trump got last election. I also don't think, at all, that everyone that voted from Trump in 2016 was racist.
 
ZenMode said:
Right. In my mind, somewhere between 2008 and the end of Obama's second term, the Democratic Party, whether the label is fair or not, became associated with many "new" things that they probably hadn't been associated with previously: wokeness, cancel culture, drag queen story hour, men in women's bathrooms, etc. And you had some old things that become more visible: softness on crime and the border. I say "whether the label is fair or not" because social media has created an environment where broad-brush generalizations are the norm. If one politician in Minnesota openly advocates for completely getting rid of police, then "Democrats" in general want to get rid of police.

Do you believe that those things have anything to do with the rise of Trump?
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I do think those things have something to do with the rise of Trump.

As Dems worked to address additional types of discrimination against and marginalization of minority groups in the US, Republicans chose to double down on bigotry and chose a very public bigot for their standard bearer.

But as I said, the Dems did nothing to make the Pubs choose that path and to double down on the worst of their bigotries was a choice Pubs completely own.
 
superrific said:
OK, you are correct about the wokeness timeline. My mistake. See how easy it is?
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When I said the Trans/Drag stuff may have started after 2012, I was basically admitting I was wrong. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when there is reason to. The abnormal/normal/typical/atypical situation is a difference of opinion, not a matter of someone being wrong, even though you tried to portray it that way.
 
SnoopRob said:
I wholly disagree with this. I think it's very important we not make cartoon characters out of a group of people, that's an early step in dehumanizing them.

I would say they think that Trump cares about them more than Dems care about them. Trump has clearly heard them and what they are seeking from the government. And he promises them those things. You and I know he's full of shit with the vast majority of those promises, but in their mind it's better than nothing. He also followed through on some of those promises...such as appointing SCOTUS justices to overturn RvW, taking drastic steps at the border, trying to keep the folks they want to be second-class citizens as second-class citizens, and enacting tariffs to protect American manufacturing. While not nearly enough to make a difference in their day-to-day lives, it is more than they feel the Dems offer them.

The other thing that Trump does better than Dems or other Pubs is making MAGA folks feel special. He continually points to them as "Real Americans" and holds them up as the "best" or "true" part of America. Now, these folks aren't so stupid that they don't realize that things aren't going their way. They know that many of their communities aren't doing well and that a lot of rural red areas aren't thriving. But Trump not only tells them it's not their fault, but that they shouldn't have to do anything to address these issues. He tells them that America owes them and that the country should be the one to fix the issues facing their areas. You and I know that there is almost no chance of this happening on a grand scale, but they respond to it by preferring Trump's promises to other potential solutions.
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1. Fair about not making cartoon characters out of an entire group of people. It is, of course, difficult to talk about politics without using generalities, and then the generalities can raise these sorts of issues.

2. Yes, Trump makes the MAGAs feel special. This "real American" BS started with Palin and the Tea Party, but Trump rode that wave. I would put this in the category of stupid. A con man always makes the victims feel special. Then he cons them. I would put empty promises into this category as well.

3. The communities where Trump does well aren't necessarily the communities that "aren't doing well." Trump's support is predicted first and foremost by browning. Communities that are becoming less white, are pro-Trump. I suppose hating the same thing could be conceptualized as caring about them, but it's a stretch. I mean, did the US care about the Soviet Union or vice versa during WWII?

4. At the end of the day, the primary disagreement between us is the extent to which MAGAs realize Trump doesn't care about them. Maybe they don't. I'm not going to insist on this point because I really don't know. But there has to be a reason why they talk about him being sent by God.

5. My focus in these discussions is trying to explain the whole "Trump was sent by God" thing, the "Jesus is watching over Trump," etc. Trump isn't the first one to appoint justices or promise security at the border, etc. They didn't say Bush was sent by God. They didn't say Reagan was sent by God. Only Trump. And they know he's a very bad person, which is why they say things like, "sometimes God works through imperfect men" or "God's plans are incomprehensible to us." They wouldn't have to resort to such self-humiliating bullshit if they didn't know something is wrong there.

6. There is also the personality piece to the puzzle. The people who like Trump are people with authoritarian personalities. People with the Dark Triad of traits are especially Trumpers. That's sort of orthogonal to the discussion here, but anyway. . .
 
ZenMode said:
The abnormal/normal/typical/atypical situation is a difference of opinion, not a matter of someone being wrong, even though you tried to portray it that way.
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1. It wasn't just me. Basically nobody agreed with you. So you had to invent a political angle to explain why everyone else was wrong.
2. That particular discussion is a tiny subset of things about which you are wrong.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not saying that at all. Obviously there are racists in the country, but not 72 million... or however many votes Trump got last election. I also don't think, at all, that everyone that voted from Trump in 2016 was racist.
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“…but not 72 million” racists in the country. I disagree. With over 300 million people in the US, I’d venture to say there damn well are 72 million of them who are “racist” enough not to care for a black man in the White House.
 
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