Harris/Walz Catch-All | Kamala blitz in closing stretch

[Wheels81]

 

[SnoopRob]

Now they can't admit that they fucked up, because it was the ultimate stupidity. Sure George W Bush didn't actually give a shit about the soldiers he sent to die in Iraq, but he at least pretended. Somehow these morons thought Donald Trump cared about them. When it was clear that he didn't, they couldn't bring themselves to admit that the liberals were right. They couldn't bring themselves to admit that they were the stupidest gaggle of voters in the entire history of the United States. So now they draw superhero memes and pretend that God sent Trump for mysterious reasons, because they can't defend the actual man.

I wholly disagree with this. I think it's very important we not make cartoon characters out of a group of people, that's an early step in dehumanizing them.

I would say they think that Trump cares about them more than Dems care about them. Trump has clearly heard them and what they are seeking from the government. And he promises them those things. You and I know he's full of shit with the vast majority of those promises, but in their mind it's better than nothing. He also followed through on some of those promises...such as appointing SCOTUS justices to overturn RvW, taking drastic steps at the border, trying to keep the folks they want to be second-class citizens as second-class citizens, and enacting tariffs to protect American manufacturing. While not nearly enough to make a difference in their day-to-day lives, it is more than they feel the Dems offer them.

The other thing that Trump does better than Dems or other Pubs is making MAGA folks feel special. He continually points to them as "Real Americans" and holds them up as the "best" or "true" part of America. Now, these folks aren't so stupid that they don't realize that things aren't going their way. They know that many of their communities aren't doing well and that a lot of rural red areas aren't thriving. But Trump not only tells them it's not their fault, but that they shouldn't have to do anything to address these issues. He tells them that America owes them and that the country should be the one to fix the issues facing their areas. You and I know that there is almost no chance of this happening on a grand scale, but they respond to it by preferring Trump's promises to other potential solutions.

 

[ZenMode]

So, you agree that the right turned to a revanchist troglodyte like Trump largely because it was so vexed by having a black man in the Oval Office for eight years, but you're also critical of Democrats for calling that racist? Interesting.

I'm not saying that at all. Obviously there are racists in the country, but not 72 million... or however many votes Trump got last election. I also don't think, at all, that everyone that voted from Trump in 2016 was racist.

 

[superrific]

Wokeness,happened during Obama's second term.

OK, you are correct about the wokeness timeline. My mistake. See how easy it is?

 

[SnoopRob]

Right. In my mind, somewhere between 2008 and the end of Obama's second term, the Democratic Party, whether the label is fair or not, became associated with many "new" things that they probably hadn't been associated with previously: wokeness, cancel culture, drag queen story hour, men in women's bathrooms, etc. And you had some old things that become more visible: softness on crime and the border. I say "whether the label is fair or not" because social media has created an environment where broad-brush generalizations are the norm. If one politician in Minnesota openly advocates for completely getting rid of police, then "Democrats" in general want to get rid of police.

Do you believe that those things have anything to do with the rise of Trump?

I do think those things have something to do with the rise of Trump.

As Dems worked to address additional types of discrimination against and marginalization of minority groups in the US, Republicans chose to double down on bigotry and chose a very public bigot for their standard bearer.

But as I said, the Dems did nothing to make the Pubs choose that path and to double down on the worst of their bigotries was a choice Pubs completely own.

 

[lightbluenc]

Dems don’t make a big deal out of wokeness, drag shows, or trans anything. That’s all coming from Republicans.

Just leave people alone and treat them fairly is all We ask for.

 

[ZenMode]

OK, you are correct about the wokeness timeline. My mistake. See how easy it is?

When I said the Trans/Drag stuff may have started after 2012, I was basically admitting I was wrong. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when there is reason to. The abnormal/normal/typical/atypical situation is a difference of opinion, not a matter of someone being wrong, even though you tried to portray it that way.

 

[SnoopRob]

"This guy even outsourced God..."

 

[superrific]

I wholly disagree with this. I think it's very important we not make cartoon characters out of a group of people, that's an early step in dehumanizing them.

I would say they think that Trump cares about them more than Dems care about them. Trump has clearly heard them and what they are seeking from the government. And he promises them those things. You and I know he's full of shit with the vast majority of those promises, but in their mind it's better than nothing. He also followed through on some of those promises...such as appointing SCOTUS justices to overturn RvW, taking drastic steps at the border, trying to keep the folks they want to be second-class citizens as second-class citizens, and enacting tariffs to protect American manufacturing. While not nearly enough to make a difference in their day-to-day lives, it is more than they feel the Dems offer them.

The other thing that Trump does better than Dems or other Pubs is making MAGA folks feel special. He continually points to them as "Real Americans" and holds them up as the "best" or "true" part of America. Now, these folks aren't so stupid that they don't realize that things aren't going their way. They know that many of their communities aren't doing well and that a lot of rural red areas aren't thriving. But Trump not only tells them it's not their fault, but that they shouldn't have to do anything to address these issues. He tells them that America owes them and that the country should be the one to fix the issues facing their areas. You and I know that there is almost no chance of this happening on a grand scale, but they respond to it by preferring Trump's promises to other potential solutions.

1. Fair about not making cartoon characters out of an entire group of people. It is, of course, difficult to talk about politics without using generalities, and then the generalities can raise these sorts of issues.

2. Yes, Trump makes the MAGAs feel special. This "real American" BS started with Palin and the Tea Party, but Trump rode that wave. I would put this in the category of stupid. A con man always makes the victims feel special. Then he cons them. I would put empty promises into this category as well.

3. The communities where Trump does well aren't necessarily the communities that "aren't doing well." Trump's support is predicted first and foremost by browning. Communities that are becoming less white, are pro-Trump. I suppose hating the same thing could be conceptualized as caring about them, but it's a stretch. I mean, did the US care about the Soviet Union or vice versa during WWII?

4. At the end of the day, the primary disagreement between us is the extent to which MAGAs realize Trump doesn't care about them. Maybe they don't. I'm not going to insist on this point because I really don't know. But there has to be a reason why they talk about him being sent by God.

5. My focus in these discussions is trying to explain the whole "Trump was sent by God" thing, the "Jesus is watching over Trump," etc. Trump isn't the first one to appoint justices or promise security at the border, etc. They didn't say Bush was sent by God. They didn't say Reagan was sent by God. Only Trump. And they know he's a very bad person, which is why they say things like, "sometimes God works through imperfect men" or "God's plans are incomprehensible to us." They wouldn't have to resort to such self-humiliating bullshit if they didn't know something is wrong there.

6. There is also the personality piece to the puzzle. The people who like Trump are people with authoritarian personalities. People with the Dark Triad of traits are especially Trumpers. That's sort of orthogonal to the discussion here, but anyway. . .

 

[superrific]

The abnormal/normal/typical/atypical situation is a difference of opinion, not a matter of someone being wrong, even though you tried to portray it that way.

1. It wasn't just me. Basically nobody agreed with you. So you had to invent a political angle to explain why everyone else was wrong.
2. That particular discussion is a tiny subset of things about which you are wrong.

 

[Centerpiece]

I'm not saying that at all. Obviously there are racists in the country, but not 72 million... or however many votes Trump got last election. I also don't think, at all, that everyone that voted from Trump in 2016 was racist.

“…but not 72 million” racists in the country. I disagree. With over 300 million people in the US, I’d venture to say there damn well are 72 million of them who are “racist” enough not to care for a black man in the White House.

 

[bridgetender]

There are some Democratic positions/policies that, I believe, drive people to Trump. One good example is the perception/fact that some Democrats are soft on crime. Some things are made up by the Right. The claim that the mobs robbing jewelry stores in California are doing so without consequence. That's simply not true, but the Right-wing media has implied that it is. Other things are true. NY's policy of "catch and release" has resulted in suspects/criminals committing more crimes. Police stood by, in at least one Democrat run city, while rioters looted businesses during the George Floyd riots. The Minneapolis City Council President saying that a fear of not being able to call the police, when someone is breaking into your house, "comes from a place of privilege". Just my opinion, but that last position, that being able to call police for help when your home is being broken into, is the beginning of where the Democratic Party goes to die.

It's a ridiculous viewpoint, especially when you realize that Republicans nominated a convicted felon and insurrectionist as their presidential nominee. Republicans being the party of law and order is just talk and wishful thinking by conservative media.

 

[ZenMode]

1. It wasn't just me. Basically nobody agreed with you. So you had to invent a political angle to explain why everyone else was wrong.
2. That particular discussion is a tiny subset of things about which you are wrong.

Well, no shit! The people who didn't agree with me were a) liberal and b) often making an emotional argument because it's "mean" to refer to homosexuals as abnormal.

 

[superrific]

Well, no shit! The people who didn't agree with me were a) liberal and b) often making an emotional argument because it's "mean" to refer to homosexuals as abnormal.

As I said, you had to invent a political angle. And that's why our country is such a mess. Because millions of people like you think that grievance is an acceptable substitute for knowledge. Sometime in Obama's presidency, that became normalized.

 

[ChileG]

Do I believe that the things you mentioned are why people voted for Trump? No, I don't, and given what we know about Trump (and knew as early as 2016) it does not justify voting for Trump over Hillary. You can argue that the crime issue somehow made the difference for Trump, my argument is that those people would have voted for Trump anyway, and if not for the "soft on crime" issue they would simply have found another reason to vote for him. And that doesn't explain how Democrats are responsible for Trump's election. The people who are responsible for Trump's election are Republican voters for nominating him and then voting for him, twice. It's not the Democratic Party's fault that Trump was elected in 2016, or that he nearly won again four years later.

Kamala’s a Marxist! Kamala controls hurricane’s! Kamala caused inflation! Kamala wants open borders so immigrants can eat your pets! Democrats eat babies and drink their blood!
But yeah, people will vote for a criminal over a former DA because democrats are soft on crime. Sure.

 

[mynameisbond]

I wholly disagree with this. I think it's very important we not make cartoon characters out of a group of people, that's an early step in dehumanizing them.

I would say they think that Trump cares about them more than Dems care about them. Trump has clearly heard them and what they are seeking from the government. And he promises them those things. You and I know he's full of shit with the vast majority of those promises, but in their mind it's better than nothing. He also followed through on some of those promises...such as appointing SCOTUS justices to overturn RvW, taking drastic steps at the border, trying to keep the folks they want to be second-class citizens as second-class citizens, and enacting tariffs to protect American manufacturing. While not nearly enough to make a difference in their day-to-day lives, it is more than they feel the Dems offer them.

The other thing that Trump does better than Dems or other Pubs is making MAGA folks feel special. He continually points to them as "Real Americans" and holds them up as the "best" or "true" part of America. Now, these folks aren't so stupid that they don't realize that things aren't going their way. They know that many of their communities aren't doing well and that a lot of rural red areas aren't thriving. But Trump not only tells them it's not their fault, but that they shouldn't have to do anything to address these issues. He tells them that America owes them and that the country should be the one to fix the issues facing their areas. You and I know that there is almost no chance of this happening on a grand scale, but they respond to it by preferring Trump's promises to other potential solutions.

That is a fair and accurate summary of the MAGA movement as a whole, IMHO. Trump gives the illusion of being a champion of the little guy. Someone who cares about protecting citizens from the "deep state", elitists, intellectuals, the media, and other people who perceive the world differently than them. He gives them scapegoats for all of the perceived ills and unfairness they hold dear, and hearkens them back to an idyllic yesteryear that never existed. A time when the USA was free from racial unrest, high crime, inflation, unwanted immigrants, scientific warnings of climate change, dependence on imported oil, and all manner of other worries. He's a populist entertainer who will say whatever his audience wants to hear, without regard to truth or logic.

 

[finesse]

Not exactly. I am liberal but you're using a term much more typically used in a clinical setting to describe a trait or condition than a person. You do it in framework where your dualistic view driven by your superstitions suggest that something is wrong inherently when you have repeatedly failed to make that case. You conflate biology with emotion , including making the asinine statement that gays are abnormal because they don't breed when they can and do.

 

[ZenMode]

I do think those things have something to do with the rise of Trump.

As Dems worked to address additional types of discrimination against and marginalization of minority groups in the US, Republicans chose to double down on bigotry and chose a very public bigot for their standard bearer.

But as I said, the Dems did nothing to make the Pubs choose that path and to double down on the worst of their bigotries was a choice Pubs completely own.

There's so much to talk about when talking about the rise of Trump. It would take 100 pages to cover it all. Social media played a big role, but I'm not going to get into that.

In general, I think people saw things happening that scared them. If you were concerned about illegal border crossings, you're a labeled a racist. If you are against affirmative action, you're a racist. As part of wokeness, people were losing their jobs for what was essentially thought crimes or because they were white and dressed up as a black celebrity 20 years ago. There were censorship and free speech concerns and there was no faith in the current Republican party or it's politicians to address the issue. We had just come off of the Romney/Obama election... two guys who were, politically, about as close to being the same as any two politicians ever in the Presidential race.

Along come Trump. He doesn't talk like politicians. He talks like "we" talk. He doesn't sugar coat it. He talks straight about the things that worry people.... and so it began.

In the eyes of Republican, and many undecided voters, things haven't gotten any better. Wokeness and cancel culture are largely gone, but in its place is drag queen story hour, DEI, people losing their jobs for saying "all lives matter", cops standing by while businesses are looted. Minnesota politicians calling it a "priviledge" to be able to call the police for help when their house is being robbed and calling or the complete elemination of police. CNN broadcasters standing in front of burning buildings saying idiotic things like "It's a fiery but otherwise peaceful protest". In some cases, people being fired from their job because of something their spouse posted on line. Then there's the lie of a stolen election that consumed the country. Now, you have the economy and inflation and gas prices combined with a very, IMO, underwhelming Kamala Harris.

Again, there's a significant underlying social media influence here.

 

[finesse]

There's so much to talk about when talking about the rise of Trump. It would take 100 pages to cover it all. Social media played a big role, but I'm not going to get into that.

In general, I think people saw things happening that scared them. If you were concerned about illegal border crossings, you're a labeled a racist. If you are against affirmative action, you're a racist. As part of wokeness, people were losing their jobs for what was essentially thought crimes or because they were white and dressed up as a black celebrity 20 years ago. There were censorship and free speech concerns and there was no faith in the current Republican party or it's politicians to address the issue. We had just come off of the Romney/Obama election... two guys who were, politically, about as close to being the same as any two politicians ever in the Presidential race.

Along come Trump. He doesn't talk like politicians. He talks like "we" talk. He doesn't sugar coat it. He talks straight about the things that worry people.... and so it began.

In the eyes of Republican, and many undecided voters, things haven't gotten any better. Wokeness and cancel culture are largely gone, but in its place is drag queen story hour, DEI, people losing their jobs for saying "all lives matter", cops standing by while businesses are looted. Minnesota politicians calling it a "priviledge" to be able to call the police for help when their house is being robbed and calling or the complete elemination of police. CNN broadcasters standing in front of burning buildings saying idiotic things like "It's a fiery but otherwise peaceful protest". In some cases, people being fired from their job because of something their spouse posted on line. Then there's the lie of a stolen election that consumed the country. Now, you have the economy and inflation and gas prices combined with a very, IMO, underwhelming Kamala Harris.

Again, there's a significant underlying social media influence here.

So how do you think Republicans will handle it when they discover that all their worries were a pack of lies and that they sold their birthright for a metaphorical bowl of porridge?

 

[05C40]

To the extent that this has already been covered, I apologize. But, I have to believe that given how long Tim Walz was a public school teacher, the RNC, the Trump organization, or entities working at their behest have searched high and low for some student with a grudge against Tim Walz to make an allegation that Tim Walz was somehow sexually inappropriate with him or her. But given how sketchy such an allegation would probably be, I would guess that "Today's GOP" is holding it until there is not enough time to vet or refute it.