I do want conservatives on here

WaynetheDrain said:
If you haven't been embarrassed by Super and later learned that he was right and become smarter for it, you haven't truly participated on the message boards at IC. Super is a smart dude.
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He really is. I have learned so much from him over the years on a variety of subjects and topics. He is legitimately one of my favorite parts about this whole community.
 
BlueDevilPharmD said:
I thought I was pure Red because that is how my parents raised me... but now I am just bitter about all of politics and don't think that anyone in power is actually looking out for us.
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I get it. I really and honestly get where that feeling comes form. And you know what? There honestly are some real world constraints around the dynamic of power that force that to be the the case. When you have 20 minutes, I can't recommend strongly enough that you watch this CPG Grey video. It's literally like a secret decoder ring that has helped me see thought and understand why politicians continually seem to fail us. It also explains the structural conditions under which the public get more good from their government and which conditions lead to less good from the government (newsflash we are heading in the wrong direction there).



I know 20 minutes is a big time investment in our short attention span world, but the investment is worth it, I PROMISE. Besides, CPG Grey videos are fast paced, amusing, educational, and fun (I recommend the Hexagons are the Bestagons video next... so good).

ETA: After digesting the contents of this video it might be interesting to think though the implications of:
  • How our system of checks and balances was helpful by creating multi-polar centers of power each with their own keys to power, which created a matrix like effect that added a ton of stability to our political system, and how terrifying the erosion of those checks balances truly is (e.g. unitary executive theory)
  • How terrifying the Supreme court power grab (e.g. the Chevron decision) is because it centers power in lifetime appointment judges which severely limits their needs to rely on keys to power at all (their need for keys to power is limited solely to needing someone to enforce their rulings, no more and no less)
  • How problematic efficiency gains though technology are, and will be in the future (if you can increase productivity though AI and/or installing robots on the factory floor, what do you need an educated productive population for?)
  • And so on... Like I said, a magic decoder ring (useful analytical framework, actually) for understanding why the world is the way it is and what's driving it.
 
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GQNC said:
If someone posts with the latest right wing catch phrase, do you not think that some ridicule is not justified? It just screams “minion” to me. Too many RW posters at ZZLP would immediately cause me to ignore what they say because their catch phrase use just identified it as talking points.

I doubt if I’m the only one here that used to (pre-Obama presidency) look at Fox News occasionally but could no longer stomach it afterward when the misinformation/disinformation spigot went wide open.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t want my NBC, MSNBC, PBS/NPR broadcasts to shoot me BS either, but theirs just seems very much less frequent than a two minute viewing of Fox or NewsMax (yeah, I would have to hear a bit of that at my MIL’s house).
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The trap is that they know you are likely to only view sources that lean your way. If something significant happens (biden cognitive decline) that will benefit the right they just sit on it or lightly cover it. Meanwhile the right media sources are hammering away at it. What then is the result. You believe its a nothing burger and the right believes it is a smoking gun. The biden situation is a great example. For two years biden's decline has been dismissed by the left's media, therefore dismissed by the left until it was on stage for the world to see. The right's media has been reporting it non stop and therefore we repeat what we are hearing. You and I hear what they want us to hear and they know only a small percentage of people will actually dig deeper. I used to think oh Fox wouldn't do that. Bullshit. Fox wants me to be mad all the time and they aren't going to give me the entire story if they don't have to. Your media is the same and if you continue to deny it then you are doing just what they want you to do.
 
Callatoroy said:
There is no place for serious discussion for something like flat earth theory. Here is where you have to be careful though if you are sincere about wanting true debate. Who is the decider of what equates to flat earth theory? To me, if someone posts something that they are sincere about but you guys jump all over it that does nothing but send us back down the zzlp road. And it will drive away posters. The line is crossed when the flat earth post is combined with obvious trolling. The way the disagreement is framed will obviously determine how big a pissing match ensues. To use the analogy that was used before, saying someone is stupid is a personal attack. Saying your idea is stupid isn't as personal from a semantics pov, but in essence will be taken the same way by the poster. "Stupid" just isn't a word that fosters honest debate and ultimately ends up back where you (the board) says they don't want to go. My opinion is (and I admit this is a long shot and not likely to happen for more than a week) if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it on here. I know that probably won't be popular because we have some big personalities on here and its easy to let emotions rule the post. But none of us would talk to each other like we do on the zzlp if we were sitting at a table at He's Not sharing a pitcher. The odds are that this place ends up like the zzlp. We all say we don't want that but we all, to differing degrees, somewhat enjoy the freedom to express anger / frustration / sarcasm that anonymity offers. I have already seen some posts that I would have normally posted an "eff you" and sarcastic response to knowing it would have resulted in nothing substantive and constructive so I just passed it by. In the end, this is going to be a liberal dominated board. Conservatives will always be fighting an uphill battle on here. That's just the way it is and we conservatives have to accept it or go start another board. If this board is moderated, it needs to be moderated as DES would do. No favorites, no hypocrisy, and blind justice. At least then the whining from the conservatives won't be a legitimate complaint.
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Callatoroy said:
There is no place for serious discussion for something like flat earth theory. Here is where you have to be careful though if you are sincere about wanting true debate. Who is the decider of what equates to flat earth theory? To me, if someone posts something that they are sincere about but you guys jump all over it that does nothing but send us back down the zzlp road. And it will drive away posters. The line is crossed when the flat earth post is combined with obvious trolling. The way the disagreement is framed will obviously determine how big a pissing match ensues. To use the analogy that was used before, saying someone is stupid is a personal attack. Saying your idea is stupid isn't as personal from a semantics pov, but in essence will be taken the same way by the poster. "Stupid" just isn't a word that fosters honest debate and ultimately ends up back where you (the board) says they don't want to go. My opinion is (and I admit this is a long shot and not likely to happen for more than a week) if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it on here. I know that probably won't be popular because we have some big personalities on here and its easy to let emotions rule the post. But none of us would talk to each other like we do on the zzlp if we were sitting at a table at He's Not sharing a pitcher. The odds are that this place ends up like the zzlp. We all say we don't want that but we all, to differing degrees, somewhat enjoy the freedom to express anger / frustration / sarcasm that anonymity offers. I have already seen some posts that I would have normally posted an "eff you" and sarcastic response to knowing it would have resulted in nothing substantive and constructive so I just passed it by. In the end, this is going to be a liberal dominated board. Conservatives will always be fighting an uphill battle on here. That's just the way it is and we conservatives have to accept it or go start another board. If this board is moderated, it needs to be moderated as DES would do. No favorites, no hypocrisy, and blind justice. At least then the whining from the conservatives won't be a legitimate complaint.
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Does perpetuating the lies and myth that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump equate to being comparable to believing the earth is flat?
 
Ddseddse said:
I get it. I really and honestly get where that feeling comes form. And you know what? There honestly are some real world constraints around the dynamic of power that force that to be the the case. When you have 20 minutes, I can't recommend strongly enough that you watch this CPG Grey video. It's literally like a secret decoder ring that has helped me see thought and understand why politicians continually seem to fail us. It also explains the structural conditions under which the public get more good from their government and which conditions lead to less good from the government (newsflash we are heading in the wrong direction there).



I know 20 minutes is a big time investment in our short attention span world, but the investment is worth it, I PROMISE. Besides, CPG Grey videos are fast paced, amusing, educational, and fun (I recommend the Hexagons are the Bestagons video next... so good).

ETA: After digesting the contents of this video it might be interesting to think though the implications of:
  • How our system of checks and balances was helpful by creating multi-polar centers of power each with their own keys to power, which created a matrix like effect that added a ton of stability to out political system, and how terrifying the erosion of those checks balances truly is (e.g. unitary executive theory)
  • How terrifying the Supreme court power grab (e.g. the Chevron decision) is because it centers power in lifetime appointment judges which severely limits their needs to rely on keys to power at all (their need for key to power is limited solely to needing someone to enforce their rulings, no more and no less)
  • How problematic efficiency gains though technology are, and will be, in the future (if you can increase productivity though AI and/or installing robots on the factory floor, what do you need an educated productive population for?)
  • And so on... Like I said, a magic decoder ring (useful analytical framework, actually) for understanding why the world is the way it is and what's driving it.
Click to expand...

20 minutes well spent... thank you!
 
I don’t know if we want many - if any - of the so called “conservatives” over on ZZLP IC right now on this new site. I celebrated when Piddy said he wasn’t “going to follow you guys anywhere!” The cats are away and the rats are set free to play their evil games over there now, and it is truly a $#!€ show. And these guys are NOT traditional Republicans in any sense of the word. I’m sorry, but if you’re MAGA, full on Trump supporter you ARE NOT a typical conservative, nor a traditional Republican. You’re just not. And those guys are knee deep in Qanon, Breitbart, Newsmax, alt-right conspiracy theorists of the absolute worst kind.

Having any sort of reasonable “debate” with them is useless and an excercise in total futility. And in so doing things devolve quickly into name calling and frustrated rhetoric which should be off limits and grounds for getting threads locked, etc. Why would we want that ilk over here?

Now, if we have some trad republicans who think along the lines of Adam Kinzinger, John McCain, Mitt Romney, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, heck… even a Liz Cheney! Folks who see right through the trump BS and who know for a fact that Qanon and a lot of the Fox News “reporting” is dodgy at best and at a minimum guilty of multi million fines and penalties for their slandering, libelous and blatant lying to the American people… then maybe, perhaps we can have a discussion.

However, anything other than that, I reserve the right call out the BS. And if I happen to use language like “what a maroon” (sic) or if I refer to someone as “racist” when they are obviously spouting “the Jews will not replace us”-type crap, or say VP Harris is a “DEI pick” (or worse), then by Damn I’m gonna refer to that poaster as a MF racist. If Rock sees fit to slap my wrist or show me the door, so be it. I would probably be better off for it.

Go Heels and screw Donald Trump and every single one of his supporters.
 
Centerpiece said:
I don’t know if we want many - if any - of the so called “conservatives” over on ZZLP IC right now on this new site. I celebrated when Piddy said he wasn’t “going to follow you guys anywhere!” The cats are away and the rats are set free to play their evil games over there now, and it is truly a $#!€ show. And these guys are NOT traditional Republicans in any sense of the word. I’m sorry, but if you’re MAGA, full on Trump supporter you ARE NOT a typical conservative, nor a traditional Republican. You’re just not. And those guys are knee deep in Qanon, Breitbart, Newsmax, alt-right conspiracy theorists of the absolute worst kind.

Having any sort of reasonable “debate” with them is useless and an excercise in total futility. And in so doing things devolve quickly into name calling and frustrated rhetoric which should be off limits and grounds for getting threads locked, etc. Why would we want that ilk over here?

Now, if we have some trad republicans who think along the lines of Adam Kinzinger, John McCain, Mitt Romney, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, heck… even a Liz Cheney! Folks who see right through the trump BS and who know for a fact that Qanon and a lot of the Fox News “reporting” is dodgy at best and at a minimum guilty of multi million fines and penalties for their slandering, libelous and blatant lying to the American people… then maybe, perhaps we can have a discussion.

However, anything other than that, I reserve the right call out the BS. And if I happen to use language like “what a maroon” (sic) or if I refer to someone as “racist” when they are obviously spouting “the Jews will not replace us”-type crap, or say VP Harris is a “DEI pick” (or worse), then by Damn I’m gonna refer to that poaster as a MF racist. If Rock sees fit to slap my wrist or show me the door, so be it. I would probably be better off for it.

Go Heels and screw Donald Trump and every single one of his supporters.
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Case in point. To my knowledge this was never intended to be a lib board. "I don't know if we want" is nothing more than the zzlp. Your intolerance is shining brightly. You might as well just come out and say you are just interested in another echo chamber. The idea that you dictate what type of views people have or they have to meet some standard you impose is again, not what this board was intended for. Civility was intended though and I find your post offensive and completely lacking in civility.
 
Callatoroy said:
Case in point. To my knowledge this was never intended to be a lib board. "I don't know if we want" is nothing more than the zzlp. Your intolerance is shining brightly. You might as well just come out and say you are just interested in another echo chamber. The idea that you dictate what type of views people have or they have to meet some standard you impose is again, not what this board was intended for. Civility was intended though and I find your post offensive and completely lacking in civility.
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We don't want an echo Chamber But we have folks -say Piddy-that just come to throw flames Do I ignore his every post yes But it ruins the flow of the whole converstion
 
Callatoroy said:
Case in point. To my knowledge this was never intended to be a lib board. "I don't know if we want" is nothing more than the zzlp. Your intolerance is shining brightly. You might as well just come out and say you are just interested in another echo chamber. The idea that you dictate what type of views people have or they have to meet some standard you impose is again, not what this board was intended for. Civility was intended though and I find your post offensive and completely lacking in civility.
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I struggle with this.

To my mind, you just can't have a rational conversation with someone who believes in something like QAnon, and something like 1/4 of republicans believed in that nonsense. A whole bunch of 'em believed Trump's lie that the election was stolen, too, that voting machines were rigged, etc. I just don't see how you can accommodate fundamentally ignorant, irrational people into a community designed around the idea and ideal of rational conversation.

To be fair, I do think there are people on the left who are equally as whacko. But I don't think there's as many of them.
 
TarSpiel said:
I struggle with this.

To my mind, you just can't have a rational conversation with someone who believes in something like QAnon, and something like 1/4 of republicans believed in that nonsense. A whole bunch of 'em believed Trump's lie that the election was stolen, too, that voting machines were rigged, etc. I just don't see how you can accommodate fundamentally ignorant, irrational people into a community designed around the idea and ideal of rational conversation.

To be fair, I do think there are people on the left who are equally as whacko. But I don't think there's as many of them.
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Where are they? Have they been posting here? Who have you not been able to have a rational conversation with? Why start something off with negative comments on a thread entitled "I do want conservatives on here"? Especially when it comes across as he is doing them a favor by allowing them to post here. It was an incredibly entitled, arrogant, and unwelcoming comment and was a dick move to say it. Would you say it to someone's face if they were walking into a campus round table event discussing politics? If not, then it has no place here. Incivility doesn't have to be directed at an individual and can certainly be directed at a group or in passive/aggressive comments. Otherwise, if that's tolerated and not called out, welcome to the zzlp 2.0. Deal with those types of posters if and when they join, and on an individual basis. Maintaining long term civility really isn't that hard to do if its stressed in the initial weeks. It eventually becomes habit but it takes some growing pains to get there. Or not. I don't give a shit which way we go. I have bitten my tongue several times today and chose not to respond to something I previously would have in a "not nice" manner but I committed to civility. I would bet you, Wayne and several others have done the same. So if I'm putting in the effort I'm damn sure going to call it out when I encounter it. You aren't going to see it because none of it is directed at you. That's why you have to have moderators that represent both sides.
 
Callatoroy said:
Where are they? Have they been posting here? Who have you not been able to have a rational conversation with? Why start something off with negative comments on a thread entitled "I do want conservatives on here"? Especially when it comes across as he is doing them a favor by allowing them to post here. It was an incredibly entitled, arrogant, and unwelcoming comment and was a dick move to say it. Would you say it to someone's face if they were walking into a campus round table event discussing politics? If not, then it has no place here. Incivility doesn't have to be directed at an individual and can certainly be directed at a group or in passive/aggressive comments. Otherwise, if that's tolerated and not called out, welcome to the zzlp 2.0. Deal with those types of posters if and when they join, and on an individual basis. Maintaining long term civility really isn't that hard to do if its stressed in the initial weeks. It eventually becomes habit but it takes some growing pains to get there. Or not. I don't give a shit which way we go. I have bitten my tongue several times today and chose not to respond to something I previously would have in a "not nice" manner but I committed to civility. I would bet you, Wayne and several others have done the same. So if I'm putting in the effort I'm damn sure going to call it out when I encounter it. You aren't going to see it because none of it is directed at you. That's why you have to have moderators that represent both sides.
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1) Is spreading lies and myths that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump akin to spreading lies and myths that the Earth is flat?

2) Are you still voting for Trump/Vance?
 
Callatoroy said:
Who have you not been able to have a rational conversation with?
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A lot of people. That's my point. About 1/4 of the republican party, who actually believed that Q drops were telling us how Trump was going to kill the deep state. That's deranged. And it's not rare. And you can't have a rational conversation with people like that, nor with people who have ever used the word "Plandemic" in an actual sentence. Nor with people who believe the 2020 election was stolen.

Most pubs I know of aren't like that (75%). But some of them over on the 247 zzlp right now *are* like that. And, like I said, I struggle with how to handle them. I don't know if accommodating them is the right way. Maybe it is...I really don't know.
 
TarSpiel said:
A lot of people. That's my point. About 1/4 of the republican party, who actually believed that Q drops were telling us how Trump was going to kill the deep state. That's deranged. And it's not rare. And you can't have a rational conversation with people like that, nor with people who have ever used the word "Plandemic" in an actual sentence. Nor with people who believe the 2020 election was stolen.

Most pubs I know of aren't like that (75%). But some of them over on the 247 zzlp right now *are* like that. And, like I said, I struggle with how to handle them. I don't know if accommodating them is the right way. Maybe it is...I really don't know.
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You have interacted with those people on this board? My comments were directed at this board. Not the zzlp. Don't doubt it there.
 
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