—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who continues to support an administration that plainly lies to your face. You watch video and see x,y,z. Administration gets on national tv and states the x,y,z you just witnessed with your own eyes DID NOT HAPPEN....and you continue to support them?

Anyone with two functioning brain cells should be troubled by it, if they lie about that what else are they lying about? Yet, the board lemmings are ready to follow them off the cliff. These people will never wake up.
 
Callatoroy said:
You make the assumption that people like me are ok with what has happened. Personally im not at all. I do not believe in the immunity they get. However, I very much do believe in the immigration laws we have and in the right of the US to enforce those laws. Which seems to be the difference here. I support the concept of what ice is doing, but not its execution of carrying out that mission. You seem to not support the very idea of enforcing immigration laws. That was an assumption so if that is wrong then you can explain your view on immigration laws.
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Wow, you made a lot of incorrect assumptions.
1. I assume you are not okay with it. You say Noem should be fired, when do you hold Trump accountable is the question.
2. I am fine with enforcing immigration laws. I am not fine with the other 90% of what is happening.
 
donbosco said:
How so?
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The state of minnesota and the city of minneapolis are culpable in what has transpired. Out of political ideology they decided to ignore immigration laws and create sanctuary states / cities. Trump ran on enorcing immigration laws and securing the border. ICE has a role to play in our immigration laws and is justified in being there (not necessarily in its tactics), just being there to enforce the laws. Now you have socialist / marxist groups funding and organizing protests and using social media to stir up and agitate protesters that when combined with the poor leadership in minnesota and dhs, and the poorly executed leadership on the ground, we get people killed and a disaster. ICE leaving isn't the right solution. What message does that send? Anti American leftist groups can dictate whether we enforce laws they disagree with by agitating and manipulating a group to get in the middle of a federal agency performing its duties? That would make things worse.

When you get down to the root cause of much of this, it comes back to the left opposing immigration laws. Wanting to abolish ICE is the same as opposing immigration laws isn't it? If you want ICE reform or better training or whatever, you don't run around yelling abolish ICE. You oppose certain tactics, but you don't oppose their right to enforce the laws. Do you disagree with that?
 
Callatoroy said:
This article is very detailed in how organized the professional protesters are and the far left groups behind them. It doesn’t attempt to justify the shooting. It just shows how things get to a point where they can get escalated where bad things can happen. The current mix of ICE + agitated protesters isnt going to solve the problem given the leadership in Minnesota and DHS.

www.foxnews.com

The far-left network that helped put Alex Pretti in harm's way, then made him a martyr

Encrypted chats show activists tracked ICE agents using a sophisticated database before the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. They then used it to mobilize agitators.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
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I'd like to point out that this is textbook propaganda, with especially close resemblance to the propaganda of Maoist China. Back then, pretty much every bad thing that happened was tied to a secret network of "Capitalist roaders" who were attempting to set the stage for a re-invasion of the mainland by Chiang Kai-Shek in Taiwan. The methods were exactly the same: conviction by association.

What your article shows (assuming that this database is real, which is maybe a 50-50 proposition) is a group of people engaging in peaceful and legal activity, without any form of ideology. They are observing ICE. The reason, of course, is that ICE is going around committing gross civil rights violations, and the only thing that will hold them to account is video. Hell, the administration is trying to sweep these killings under the rug even in the face of video evidence, so of course they would do so without observers.

So we have perfectly legal action by unidentified people with no evidence of bad intent.

Then the article shows that there are far left groups who also speak out against ICE and publicize ICE abuses. This is not uncommon at all. In fact, it would be weird for them not to do so. To use an analogy to UNC BB, the logic seems to be as follows: everyone who doesn't want HD to be fired is agonized by a blowout loss to Duke; people who do want HD to be fired are also reacting; therefore all people upset about the loss are HD haters. Do you understand why that is an extraordinary fallacy?

The fact that leftists and non-leftists come together to protest state terror tells you almost nothing about either group. Both leftists and non-leftists agree that gravity exists. That does not mean that all physicists, engineers, airplane pilots and everyone who thinks it a bad idea to leap out windows from 20 stories up is a socialist. It means that your logic is messed up.

Thank you for posting this article and giving insight into your thought process. Other posters have noticed it and made similar critiques as I have.
 
Zoo_View said:
It’s Donald Trump’s Administration.

Bovino and Noem are acting as Trump wants.
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Maybe, maybe not. I'm not an adamant no. The next month will go a long way in how I feel about that. If he fires them and tactics change then I will be a no. If not and things continue as is I will be a yes.
 
Callatoroy said:
At what point in a protest should people leave the sidewalks? When does it reach the point of getting close to ICE and getting in the roads or interfering? Does ICE have the authority to arrest people in Minnesota illegally? Protestors should be loud, stay on the sidewalks (out of way), record what’s happening. If you feel they need to do more then you are hoping for more tragedy.
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Protesters should not leave sidewalks. Ok, then what would you say about the January 6 rioters who were pardoned?
 
Callatoroy said:
The state of minnesota and the city of minneapolis are culpable in what has transpired. Out of political ideology they decided to ignore immigration laws and create sanctuary states / cities. Trump ran on enorcing immigration laws and securing the border. ICE has a role to play in our immigration laws and is justified in being there (not necessarily in its tactics), just being there to enforce the laws. Now you have socialist / marxist groups funding and organizing protests and using social media to stir up and agitate protesters that when combined with the poor leadership in minnesota and dhs, and the poorly executed leadership on the ground, we get people killed and a disaster. ICE leaving isn't the right solution. What message does that send? Anti American leftist groups can dictate whether we enforce laws they disagree with by agitating and manipulating a group to get in the middle of a federal agency performing its duties? That would make things worse.

When you get down to the root cause of much of this, it comes back to the left opposing immigration laws. Wanting to abolish ICE is the same as opposing immigration laws isn't it? If you want ICE reform or better training or whatever, you don't run around yelling abolish ICE. You oppose certain tactics, but you don't oppose their right to enforce the laws. Do you disagree with that?
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This argument falls to pieces when you realize the right killed an immigration bill in order to use the issue to help Trump get elected. There was never a reality where Dems supported uncontrolled immigration into the country. You’re just a rube who fell for the rhetoric like always.
 
CHAMTRAIN said:
I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who continues to support an administration that plainly lies to your face. You watch video and see x,y,z. Administration gets on national tv and states the x,y,z you just witnessed with your own eyes DID NOT HAPPEN....and you continue to support them?

Anyone with two functioning brain cells should be troubled by it, if they lie about that what else are they lying about? Yet, the board lemmings are ready to follow them off the cliff. These people will never wake up.
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It has to be utterly humiliating to not be able to critically think for yourself.
 
Callatoroy said:
I have stated clearly I disagreed with the method.
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So what? Do you want credit for that? I don't think this statement is doing the work you think it is.

Maybe you think that this shows you to be fair and open-minded.

To me it shows that you are defending the indefensible. You've admitted the agents are using "bad methods," but you are supporting the administration and this agency regardless. What should we take from that? You can't defend the action; you support the actor. So what difference does it make whether you disagree with the action?

Seriously -- what do you think we should take from you disagreeing with the method. Why do you think that matters at all? If you're not able to act on your disagreement, it might as well not exist.

Now, sure: maybe you have other priorities. If an administration did what I like on the 10 most important things and fucked up on the 11th, I would still support it. Is that the case for you? See, I would think that anyone who claims to love freedom would prioritize "stopping armed, masked federal agents who disclaim or ignore legal limitations on their power going around killing and badly injuring people" would prioritize that #1. Like, doesn't everyone prioritize it #1?

I confess, I've never prioritized "no Gestapo" in my political calculus. I never had any opportunity to do so. I figured it was implied. The precondition for my support of any candidate or party is "no Gestapo."

Other implied preconditions: I will not support an administration that promises global nuclear war. I've never actually said that before; I figured we all would. I will also not support an administration that requires people to quarter soldiers; one that confiscates all wealth and divides it evenly among the people after the elites take a big cut for themselves; or ones that run concentration camps. I've never expressed this before, because it's implied.

So, if you DO support administrations that run a Gestapo like armed state terror force, what are the priorities that do it for you?
 
Callatoroy said:
The state of minnesota and the city of minneapolis are culpable in what has transpired. Out of political ideology they decided to ignore immigration laws and create sanctuary states / cities. Trump ran on enorcing immigration laws and securing the border. ICE has a role to play in our immigration laws and is justified in being there (not necessarily in its tactics), just being there to enforce the laws. Now you have socialist / marxist groups funding and organizing protests and using social media to stir up and agitate protesters that when combined with the poor leadership in minnesota and dhs, and the poorly executed leadership on the ground, we get people killed and a disaster. ICE leaving isn't the right solution. What message does that send? Anti American leftist groups can dictate whether we enforce laws they disagree with by agitating and manipulating a group to get in the middle of a federal agency performing its duties? That would make things worse.

When you get down to the root cause of much of this, it comes back to the left opposing immigration laws. Wanting to abolish ICE is the same as opposing immigration laws isn't it? If you want ICE reform or better training or whatever, you don't run around yelling abolish ICE. You oppose certain tactics, but you don't oppose their right to enforce the laws. Do you disagree with that?
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I am genuinely sad that you believe "Anti-American leftist groups" are responsible for these peaceful protests. It smacks of J. Edgar Hoover's accusation that radical Marxists were responsible for the civil rights and anti-war movements 60 years ago.
 
Callatoroy said:
I don't know Chile. I'm always the one willing to give a minority opinion. Why don't you take a stab at it.
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You appear to do quite the opposite. Your positions are consistently the same as the enablers who vaguely mask themselves in a veneer of ethics. Just because you differ on this very small website does not give you reasonable license to self congratulate as some independent thinker. You are my normative concerned fascist here in BFE OL’ Confederacy.
 
CHAMTRAIN said:
I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who continues to support an administration that plainly lies to your face. You watch video and see x,y,z. Administration gets on national tv and states the x,y,z you just witnessed with your own eyes DID NOT HAPPEN....and you continue to support them?

Anyone with two functioning brain cells should be troubled by it, if they lie about that what else are they lying about? Yet, the board lemmings are ready to follow them off the cliff. These people will never wake up.
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Fucking morons.
 
Callatoroy said:
The state of minnesota and the city of minneapolis are culpable in what has transpired. Out of political ideology they decided to ignore immigration laws and create sanctuary states / cities. Trump ran on enorcing immigration laws and securing the border. ICE has a role to play in our immigration laws and is justified in being there (not necessarily in its tactics), just being there to enforce the laws. Now you have socialist / marxist groups funding and organizing protests and using social media to stir up and agitate protesters that when combined with the poor leadership in minnesota and dhs, and the poorly executed leadership on the ground, we get people killed and a disaster. ICE leaving isn't the right solution. What message does that send? Anti American leftist groups can dictate whether we enforce laws they disagree with by agitating and manipulating a group to get in the middle of a federal agency performing its duties? That would make things worse.

When you get down to the root cause of much of this, it comes back to the left opposing immigration laws. Wanting to abolish ICE is the same as opposing immigration laws isn't it? If you want ICE reform or better training or whatever, you don't run around yelling abolish ICE. You oppose certain tactics, but you don't oppose their right to enforce the laws. Do you disagree with that?
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I say what this administration has done in regards to ICE is not specifically what they campaigned on. Yes, they campaigned on securing the border and removing violent illegal criminals. They did not campaign on having a poorly trained, masked paramilitary group rounding up people based on the color of their skin, targeting non violent illegals, having the authority to barge into homes without a warrant, etc.

No, what ICE is doing, coupled with the clearly racist and antiemetic propaganda they use, is not what was campaigned on. People with decent critical thinking skills knew this administration would push the limits but this far?
 
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