—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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This argument falls to pieces when you realize the right killed an immigration bill in order to use the issue to help Trump get elected. There was never a reality where Dems supported uncontrolled immigration into the country. You’re just a rube who fell for the rhetoric like always.
And your argument falls apart, first, when that bill didn't address sanctuary cities that have been in existence for years, and secondly when it is pointed out that that bill was garbage and didn't come close to solving the immediate issue. At least admit there was fault with the bill. Saying a bill existed without any context is pretty weak. Trump proved without a doubt that it didn't take a BS bill to stop the problem as rubes who fell for that biden BS now see.

Trump did astutely and correctly tell the rube pubs who supported it to not pass it because it got him elected and them a majority. He knew it didn't take a crappy bill to secure the border and that it was a losing issue for dems.
 
The state of minnesota and the city of minneapolis are culpable in what has transpired. Out of political ideology they decided to ignore immigration laws and create sanctuary states / cities. Trump ran on enorcing immigration laws and securing the border. ICE has a role to play in our immigration laws and is justified in being there (not necessarily in its tactics), just being there to enforce the laws. Now you have socialist / marxist groups funding and organizing protests and using social media to stir up and agitate protesters that when combined with the poor leadership in minnesota and dhs, and the poorly executed leadership on the ground, we get people killed and a disaster. ICE leaving isn't the right solution. What message does that send? Anti American leftist groups can dictate whether we enforce laws they disagree with by agitating and manipulating a group to get in the middle of a federal agency performing its duties? That would make things worse.

When you get down to the root cause of much of this, it comes back to the left opposing immigration laws. Wanting to abolish ICE is the same as opposing immigration laws isn't it? If you want ICE reform or better training or whatever, you don't run around yelling abolish ICE. You oppose certain tactics, but you don't oppose their right to enforce the laws. Do you disagree with that?
1. They are not ignoring immigration laws. Sanctuary city policies are not against the law. That's why right-wingers who have been suing over these policies for decades have gotten nowhere. It's why Trump is now calling on Congress to pass a law outlawing sanctuary cities. It won't work, because "sanctuary cities" is simply the 10th amendment in action.

The modern formulation of the 10th Amendment was provided by Justice Scalia in a case called Printz. He wrote that federal agents have no power to commandeer state agents in enforcement of federal laws. In that case, the federal law required state officials to assist in ATF enforcement of gun laws. Scalia said nope, not allowed.

Did Scalia get it wrong? Should the federal government require state police to enforce gun laws?

2. None of these groups are anti-American, or leftist. This has been pointed out to you many times. The anti-American group in this situation is ICE. The way to know that is that never in our history -- with one exception -- have masked men been encouraged by the government to conduct fear and terror campaigns among and against American citizens. That exception was the KKK in the 1860s.

So, is opposition to the KKK anti-American? What is the line between anti-American and anti-fascist?

3. The root cause of this is ICE. That's all. It's not the left opposing immigration laws. We know this because we can look at history. ICE, under Obama, captured and deported people. Did leftists berate him for that? A few, yes; by far the majority of people weren't upset about it because ICE was not abusing its power. During Trump 1.0, did we have ICE observers roaming around? We did not. During Biden, ICE continued to catch people and deport them, and nobody on the left particularly cared.

And now, and only now, are we seeing organized groups of ICE observers. I suppose it's possible that everyone suddenly had a massive change of heart, but it seems a lot more likely that they are responding to a new development: ICE agents roaming the streets with guns and masks in unmarked vehicles, searching and seizing people based on skin color alone and committing brutal acts of violence against Americans. I'm not even talking about these shootings. I'm talking about the other brutal violent episodes that started in February 2025. Hundreds of documented incidents of ICE brutality.

Do you really think this is about opposition to immigration laws? Or the activity of a terror agency?
 
No, what ICE is doing, coupled with the clearly racist and antiemetic propaganda they use, is not what was campaigned on. People with decent critical thinking skills knew this administration would push the limits but this far?
The only thing surprising to me is the masks.

On the campaign trail, Trump talked about how federal agents should have absolute immunity. It was obvious what he planned to do with ICE, at least to me.
 
I say what this administration has done in regards to ICE is not specifically what they campaigned on. Yes, they campaigned on securing the border and removing violent illegal criminals. They did not campaign on having a poorly trained, masked paramilitary group rounding up people based on the color of their skin, targeting non violent illegals, having the authority to barge into homes without a warrant, etc.

No, what ICE is doing, coupled with the clearly racist and antiemetic propaganda they use, is not what was campaigned on. People with decent critical thinking skills knew this administration would push the limits but this far?
They campaigned on deporting all illegal aliens. They said they were going to start with those with criminal records first. That hasn't, by literal definition, been the case. Tactics were never discussed in the campaign and weren't a campaign issue.
 
They campaigned on deporting all illegal aliens. They said they were going to start with those with criminal records first. That hasn't, by literal definition, been the case. Tactics were never discussed in the campaign and weren't a campaign issue.
I would say that hasn’t been the case at all. And there’s a damn good reason he didn’t campaign on tactics.

So, Minnesota as a state rejected Trump at the polls. Minneapolis as a city overwhelmingly rejected Trump at the polls. So, by your logic the administration should have known deploying ICE to the area, the very area that saw the murder of George Floyd, would prompt protests. So sending in ICE with the same mandate, it is the administration that is at fault.
 
The only thing surprising to me is the masks.

On the campaign trail, Trump talked about how federal agents should have absolute immunity. It was obvious what he planned to do with ICE, at least to me.
It’s not really surprising to me either, but there’s a reason Trump only went so far in his descriptions on the campaign trail.
 
You appear to do quite the opposite. Your positions are consistently the same as the enablers who vaguely mask themselves in a veneer of ethics. Just because you differ on this very small website does not give you reasonable license to self congratulate as some independent thinker. You are my normative concerned fascist here in BFE OL’ Confederacy.
duly noted.
 
He is an absolute master. Although in fairness, plenty of other autocrats have done the same thing. Let his deputies carry out a policy. If it works, take credit. If it doesn't work, well it's not the Czar's fault, it's the fault of his ministers who are leading him astray.
Oh, totally. I said it earlier and I meant it, he may be a POS in every other facet of his existence but his skill in knowing which way the winds of public perception are blowing at any given moment is supreme. And as you noted, he's incredibly masterful at always maintaining plausible deniability and keeping juuuust enough distance between himself and his deputized minions. I wonder if JD Vance, who is objectively very intelligent even if I find him to be otherwise repugnant, has figured out that the administration trotted him out after the Good and Pretti murders to be the face of the admin's response, shielding Trump.
 
He is an absolute master. Although in fairness, plenty of other autocrats have done the same thing. Let his deputies carry out a policy. If it works, take credit. If it doesn't work, well it's not the Czar's fault, it's the fault of his ministers who are leading him astray.
Trademark of effective authoritarians.
 
I truly, truly do not intend for this to come across as defense of Trump in any way. I find him to be a despicable creation of essentially every single negative human vice and characteristic. That said, I don't think he is particularly bloodthirsty. People in his orbit like Stephen Miller? Absolutely. Kristi Noem, Greg Bovino, maybe even JD Vance? Almost certainly. But Trump, though a malignant narcissist and entirely self-absorbed and obsessed with wealth and power at all costs, doesn't strike me as someone who revels in the fact that a 37-year-old mother and a 37-year-old ICU nurse were executed in cold blood by ICE agents. Stephen Miller? Again, absolutely. But I don't think Trump himself is nearly as unmoved by these brutal executions as are several of his closest deputies.

That's why, in combination with his TACO nature, we see him retreating on this. He knows how badly damaging this has been for his administration, and he cares about that (only to the extent that it could cost him power and by extension wealth, but still). If people like Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, or even JD Vance were truly in charge, this thing would get way, way worse.
 
I truly, truly do not intend for this to come across as defense of Trump in any way. I find him to be a despicable creation of essentially every single negative human vice and characteristic. That said, I don't think he is particularly bloodthirsty. People in his orbit like Stephen Miller? Absolutely. Kristi Noem, Greg Bovino, maybe even JD Vance? Almost certainly. But Trump, though a malignant narcissist and entirely self-absorbed and obsessed with wealth and power at all costs, doesn't strike me as someone who revels in the fact that a 37-year-old mother and a 37-year-old ICU nurse were executed in cold blood by ICE agents. Stephen Miller? Again, absolutely. But I don't think Trump himself is nearly as unmoved by these brutal executions as are several of his closest deputies.

That's why, in combination with his TACO nature, we see him retreating on this. He knows how badly damaging this has been for his administration, and he cares about that (only to the extent that it could cost him power and by extension wealth, but still). If people like Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, or even JD Vance were truly in charge, this thing would get way, way worse.
I suspect that it is fear of hell that creeps into trump's increasingly addled thinking these days.

Not so for the rest.
 
I truly, truly do not intend for this to come across as defense of Trump in any way. I find him to be a despicable creation of essentially every single negative human vice and characteristic. That said, I don't think he is particularly bloodthirsty. People in his orbit like Stephen Miller? Absolutely. Kristi Noem, Greg Bovino, maybe even JD Vance? Almost certainly. But Trump, though a malignant narcissist and entirely self-absorbed and obsessed with wealth and power at all costs, doesn't strike me as someone who revels in the fact that a 37-year-old mother and a 37-year-old ICU nurse were executed in cold blood by ICE agents. Stephen Miller? Again, absolutely. But I don't think Trump himself is nearly as unmoved by these brutal executions as are several of his closest deputies.
I don't even think Miller wants normal run of the mill protestors to be shot. It doesn't help him, and his goal of deporting undocumented immigrants. I don't think he or Trump mind some violent fisticuffs, especially if some nut job protestor can be blamed for instigating it, but killing people without provocation ends up tanking their poll ratings.
 
But Trump, though a malignant narcissist and entirely self-absorbed and obsessed with wealth and power at all costs, doesn't strike me as someone who revels in the fact that a 37-year-old mother and a 37-year-old ICU nurse were executed in cold blood by ICE agents. Stephen Miller? Again, absolutely. But I don't think Trump himself is nearly as unmoved by these brutal executions as are several of his closest deputies.
I think you're right in your first formulation -- i.e. that Trump, unlike Miller, isn't reveling in their deaths. But I disagree with your second formulation, that Trump is not unmoved. I think he is completely unmoved and doesn't care in the slightest. What distinguishes him from his underlings is that they ARE moved, but in the wrong direction
 
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