Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[nycfan]

Continued

“… The idea was summarily dismissed by Jordan, which Trump has urged to accept refugees from Gaza temporarily or for the long term. It was also rejected by the Palestinian Authority, which governs most Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas.

“We call on the U.S. administration to halt such proposals, which align with Israeli plans and clash with the rights and free will of our people,” the U.S.-designated terrorist organization said in a statement.

But it was hailed by far-right Israeli politician Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has called for “voluntary migration” of Palestinians from the enclave and backs Israeli settlement there. …”

 

[Paine]

It's very fortunate that when this leftist revolution happens, there will be no hard choices and no lesser evils.

Believe me, I lament the state of left politics in this country more than anyone. It’s been deliberately neutered. The rise of protest politics seems to be a natural consequence of this vacuum.

There’s a reason I never got involved with those types of groups while on campus at UNC.

 

[Callatoroy]

Continued

“… The idea was summarily dismissed by Jordan, which Trump has urged to accept refugees from Gaza temporarily or for the long term. It was also rejected by the Palestinian Authority, which governs most Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas.

“We call on the U.S. administration to halt such proposals, which align with Israeli plans and clash with the rights and free will of our people,” the U.S.-designated terrorist organization said in a statement.

But it was hailed by far-right Israeli politician Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has called for “voluntary migration” of Palestinians from the enclave and backs Israeli settlement there. …”

This is one of many times when he just needs to keep his effing mouth shut. What possible good does it do for him to say that and what a bullshit thing for him to say. I can't see any way this would ever be a move toward peace for any substantial amount of time.

 

[SnoopRob]

Movements have strategies. Protests have emotion. The Gaza protests last year were not centrally coordinated and were not really strategic. You could say the same things about the 2020 George Floyd protests, too.

That doesn't mean there aren't organizers out there trying to capture the protest energy and redirect it into a movement. But by and large those organizers aren't calling the shots. It is simply a group zeitgeist (be it Tik Tok driven or not) that causes people to protest. They aren't making strategic political decisions. They are making emotional decisions.

You're correct that technically movements have strategies and protests often have a place in those strategies. You're wrong the protests are all about emotion.

The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a protest. I'm sure you wouldn't claim that it was just "emotion".

The biggest problem for the Palestinian protests weren't emotion, it was that those organizing them did so in an extremely poor way. The SJP were involved in a good number of them and they often pushed protests well into anti-Israel territory and, often, into what seemed to be anti-Jewish positions. They did not focus on the suffering of the Palestinians and instead attempted to defend the actions of the Hamas terrorists on October 7th. These were strategic failures and ones that made it easy for those supporting Israel to ignore the violations of Israel against the Palestinians.

The problems with the pro-Palestinian protests of 2023/4 weren't that they were completely unorganized, it's that the organizers didn't focus well on the issues that might have moved the public to support their aims and instead made statements and focused on issues that turned large swaths of the public against them.

 

[nycfan]

 

[SnoopRob]

College students aren’t known for having great foresight. OTOH, every other avenue re: this issue has been tried. Protests were really the only option left for those trying to register their anger in some way.

That’s what happens when the party that is supposed to be of the left aids a fascist government in perpetrating a genocide. The Biden administration was completely unresponsive on this issue.

Here we are again where the left in the US fucks up their operations, but it's ultimately the fault of moderate Dems that leftists aren't successful.

If the left can't even organize a protest that doesn't completely turn into a shitshow, why should anyone near the mainstream take the left seriously?

 

[Calheel]

You're correct that technically movements have strategies and protests often have a place in those strategies. You're wrong the protests are all about emotion.

The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a protest. I'm sure you wouldn't claim that it was just "emotion".

The biggest problem for the Palestinian protests weren't emotion, it was that those organizing them did so in an extremely poor way. The SJP were involved in a good number of them and they often pushed protests well into anti-Israel territory and, often, into what seemed to be anti-Jewish positions. They did not focus on the suffering of the Palestinians and instead attempted to defend the actions of the Hamas terrorists on October 7th. These were strategic failures and ones that made it easy for those supporting Israel to ignore the violations of Israel against the Palestinians.

The problems with the pro-Palestinian protests of 2023/4 weren't that they were completely unorganized, it's that the organizers didn't focus well on the issues that might have moved the public to support their aims and instead made statements and focused on issues that turned large swaths of the public against them.

I think one of the flaws of your thinking is that you are over weighting the role of organizers. Unless you think the CCP and Tik Tok are organizers. Yes, SJP glommed onto the protests and tried to raise its profile in the process. But I think you are greatly overstating the role of SJP, just as I would argue that BLM organizers had very little to do with the summer of 2020.

Also, I would say the initial Montgomery protests were very much emotion based. The SCLC came in and turned that initial emotion into a movement.

 

[SnoopRob]

“… His statement could mark a dramatic shift in U.S. policy toward Palestinians under presidents of both parties. No recent White House has suggested the “long-term” departure of Palestinians from Gaza, which most U.S. presidents have seen as a part of an eventual Palestinian state.

… But on Sunday Trump officials suggested the U.S. and regional partners could provide guarantees the Palestinians would eventually be allowed to return, sketching out an assurance that appeared designed to make the idea more politically palatable to Arab states.

Officials have yet to spell out the precise parameters of the suggestion, including how the more than two million Palestinians in the enclave could be relocated and whether they might eventually fulfill their aspirations to fully govern their own territory. …”

The article suggest that Trump's comments "stunned all sides", but I wonder how stunning it actually was to Israel's leadership?

It would certainly explain why they'd accept a ceasefire and hostage swap after holding out for so long if they knew that something like this would be suggested by Trump as the solution to the Palestinian issue.

 

[Callatoroy]

You think the Biden admin was fence sitting in terms of the conflict…?

I think they were trying to be supportive of both sides in different ways. I think biden was in a very difficult position and based on my personal opinions and moral views I'm not sure how he could have played it differently. In a war its hard to be neutral when you are as involved as we are with israel. trump won't have a difficult time with it and apparently sees some development possibilities. I don't think I was very vocal in my criticism of biden other than in his stalling of aid and in not managing the humanitarian aid we sent. So, does trying to militarily support israel in its just cause of eliminating hamas while criticizing the manner israel uses knowing that another method is likely to result in more of its soldiers deaths and treasure, and possibly result in not achieving its objective sitting on the fence?

 

[Paine]

Here we are again where the left in the US fucks up their operations, but it's ultimately the fault of moderate Dems that leftists aren't successful.

If the left can't even organize a protest that doesn't completely turn into a shitshow, why should anyone near the mainstream take the left seriously?

Yeah man, the Gaza protests are the “left in the U.S. fucking up their operations.” Get a grip. There is no operation. There is no left leadership in this country. There are disparate groups that perform disparate actions due to a lack of agency within our political system.

Vietnam protestors weren’t the reason Humphrey lost. It was the war.

 

[Paine]

I think they were trying to be supportive of both sides in different ways. I think biden was in a very difficult position and based on my personal opinions and moral views I'm not sure how he could have played it differently. In a war its hard to be neutral when you are as involved as we are with israel. trump won't have a difficult time with it and apparently sees some development possibilities. I don't think I was very vocal in my criticism of biden other than in his stalling of aid and in not managing the humanitarian aid we sent. So, does trying to militarily support israel in its just cause of eliminating hamas while criticizing the manner israel uses knowing that another method is likely to result in more of its soldiers deaths and treasure, and possibly result in not achieving its objective sitting on the fence?

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

 

[Callatoroy]

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

Public threats to withhold aid, being publicly critical of its methods of fighting hamas. When we make those comments publicly it sends a message.

 

[wmheel1287]

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

You didn't ask me and i didn't think Biden did nearly enough to put Israel on a chain...but i think we all are about to find out what it looks like when the US goes whole hog in favoring Bibi and his monsters.

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

 

[SnoopRob]

I think one of the flaws of your thinking is that you are over weighting the role of organizers. Unless you think the CCP and Tik Tok are organizers. Yes, SJP glommed onto the protests and tried to raise its profile in the process. But I think you are greatly overstating the role of SJP, just as I would argue that BLM organizers had very little to do with the summer of 2020.

Also, I would say the initial Montgomery protests were very much emotion based. The SCLC came in and turned that initial emotion into a movement.

If you want to say that protests are animated by emotion, I would agree with you.

What I'm saying is that protests, planned well, can serve the purposes of those who engage in said protests. Yes, that takes organizers to oversee the protests, to share a well-planned message to the public about the protests, and to provide the protestors guidelines that keep the protests focused on that message. It's said planning that allows protests to channel the emotion of righteous indignation into an effective weapon to fight injustice.

The SJP did not "glom on" to the Palestinian protests, they had been organizing such protests to raise awareness regarding the plight of Palestinians long before 10/7 and they were the direct planners of many of the initial protests right after that event. Of course, the high profile of the 10/7 attacks and Israel's response brought a lot of new folks to these protests, but SJP was in a leadership role for the initial wave of these protests and the failures of the protests are directly related to statements and actions by SJP folks in directing these protests.

I think the BLM protests are a little different as BLM leaders did a decent job with their protest messaging and largely during their protest actions. BLM's problem was that other groups glommed onto (to reuse your phrase) the BLM protests who didn't share the goals of the movement and created chaos that undermined BLM's message.

 

[Paine]

Public threats to withhold aid, being publicly critical of its methods of fighting hamas. When we make those comments publicly it sends a message.

All that is window dressing when the “threats” aren’t followed through. You can draw as many lines in the sand as you like. It doesn’t matter if you keep letting them cross.

Nevermind that I can’t remember the administration threatening to withhold aid. I could be wrong, but it was mainly a few Democratic Senators and house members who said something about that.

 

[SnoopRob]

Yeah man, the Gaza protests are the “left in the U.S. fucking up their operations.” Get a grip. There is no operation. There is no left leadership in this country. There are disparate groups that perform disparate actions due to a lack of agency within our political system.

Vietnam protestors weren’t the reason Humphrey lost. It was the war.

It's hilarious that you blame everyone but the left for the left not being able to put forth and carry out a coherent plan to spread their message that the public will follow.

In your world, the left is NC State and the public is John Swofford, forever holding them down from their just rewards.

 

[SnoopRob]

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

This sentence should be stated before every conversation about Biden's admin and the Israel/Palestine issue.

The Biden administration may not have been completely pro-Palestine, but Trump is about to show us and the world what a fully pro-Israel policy from the US means for Israel's ability to continue oppressing and displacing Palestinians.

 

[RaiGuy]

You didn't ask me and i didn't think Biden did nearly enough to put Israel on a chain...but i think we all are about to find out what it looks like when the US goes whole hog in favoring Bibi and his monsters.

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

 

[finesse]

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

As unhappy a situation as it was., Biden didn't have the political power to do more than he did. He had limited power as it was because of the united Republican opposition and would lose Democratic support in any attempt to push back on Israel. I don't have your emotional investment so it's easier for me to accept that reality. I hate that we're so intertwined with them and their policies. I had hoped that if Harris won, we'd have a chance to push back.

Oh well.

 

[SnoopRob]

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

Biden's response was greatly, greatly hemmed in by both what Republicans and a few pro-Israel Dems in Congress would allow him to do and by what was at all possible to get Israel to agree to do. Within those parameters, I think that Biden did about as much as he could do and certainly prevented far more pro-Israel folks from being able to turn US policy in a completely pro-Israel direction.

You can probably reasonably say that Biden's actions toward the Palestinian issue was a "finger in the dike" response, but Biden's finger kept the dike from failing altogether. We're now about to see what it's like when Trump bulldozes the dike and the Palestinians are caught in a full on flood against them.