Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

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Paine said:
Oh okay, I thought maybe they ran on ending elections and promoting Islamic theocracy. You’re saying that’s not the case though? I’m shocked.
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I'm not saying that wasn't part of their platform. I'm saying I'm aware of the social services and hating Israel.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not saying that wasn't part of their platform. I'm saying I'm aware of the social services and hating Israel.
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The anti-Israel side would have significantly more credibility if they were just honest about the fact that the platform is really always about destroying Israel.
 
Paine said:
Oh, so you’re spouting off without really knowing what you’re talking about, as usual.

Hamas ran in 2006 on the social services they were already providing, anti-corruption, and basic governance, filling a vacuum left by Fatah’s dysfunction and cronyism. That’s why they won.

But because Palestinians voted for the party actually delivering services, you’ve decided that means they don’t want democracy? Right.
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No.....voting for an Islamist/terrorist group comes with certain risks.

Islamism/Islamic Fundamentalism isn't exactly associated with basic tenants of freedom....
 
Paine said:
We just established that Hamas didn’t run on that in 2006. In fact, they intentionally moderated their image as I detailed. How does any of this mean the Palestinians don’t deserve democracy or don’t want democracy?
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If you're saying they could want democracy/freedom NOW.....sure, I'll buy that, but you don't elect an Islamist government if freedom/democracy is important to you.

I suspect they're having some buyer's remorse right about now.
 
ZenMode said:
If you're saying they could want democracy/freedom NOW.....sure, I'll buy that, but you don't elect an Islamist government if freedom/democracy is important to you.

I suspect they're having some buyer's remorse right about now.
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Where does Netanyahu's yearslong support of Hamas as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority fit in to all of this? Does he get a pass for supporting an Islamist government?
 
Lando said:
I have to ask again. Are we currently arming both?

If disarmament is the preferred outcome, then shouldn't we stop arming the one side that we are currently arming?
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Potentially yes. Unfortunately, one side is starting to attack citizens and can easily be labeled domestic terrorists. Not sure the US can continue to act like the Hamas/Palestine supporters are just a pain in the rear end much longer.
 
Paine said:
If Palestinians didn’t care about democracy, why would they participate in elections at all, especially under occupation and constant pressure?
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Maybe they had other, More important priorities at that time? Maybe the only slightly care about democracy. Either way, you don't elect what is essentially a religious dictatorship without an awareness of electing a religious dictatorship.
 
ZenMode said:
Maybe they had other, More important priorities at that time? Maybe the only slightly care about democracy. Either way, you don't elect what is essentially a religious dictatorship without an awareness of electing a religious dictatorship.
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And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
 
RaiGuy said:
And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
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He shows a profound disinterest in learning on very specific subjects, which consistently align with maga identity markers. But, let’s not forget - he’s a common sense centrist with libertarian leanings.
 
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Lando said:
So keep arming the better armed side but make vacuous statements about how you’re sad. Got it.
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I think we arm the side most aligned with our values and strategic interests. We'd rather have Israel win than the alternative, because that is better for us. If we only gave money and weapons based on morality we'd have very little influence and our own interests would be compromised. Hell, we armed Stalin during World War II because he was fighting Hitler for us.
 
RaiGuy said:
And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
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Israel blocked elections for nearly 20 years? How did they "block" them and what is your support for that claim?
 
Paine said:
We just established that Hamas didn’t run on that in 2006. In fact, they intentionally moderated their image as I detailed. How does any of this mean the Palestinians don’t deserve or don’t want democracy?

You’re shifting the goalposts. First it was “they don’t want democracy because they voted for Hamas,” but now that it’s clear Hamas didn’t run on abolishing democracy, you’re falling back on vague claims about Islamism.

So again: how does participating in a democratic election, under occupation no less, show they don’t want democracy?
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You do know he’ll continually move the goalposts, right?
 
The Guardian:

At least 27 Palestinians killed and dozens wounded by Israeli fire near food distribution point, say local health authorities​

At least 27 Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded by Israeli fire near a food distribution site in the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, local health authorities said.

It is the third consecutive day of similar incidents as Israel attempts to impose a new aid distribution regime on the Gaza Strip, which it has been blockading for weeks.

The Israeli military said its forces had opened fire on a group of individuals who had left designated access routes near the distribution centre in Rafah.

Journalists have not been able to independently the casualty count, but Reuters reports a spokesperson for the International Committee of the Red Cross told the news agency its field hospital in Rafah received 184 casualties, adding that 19 of those were declared dead upon arrival, and eight died of their wounds shortly after.
 
The things that are being asked of Israel are insane.

They are at war with a group of people who elected a government who wants to annihilate them. That group takes hostages. The war escalates. Hostages not released.

Israel is then expected to facilitate and enable aid to the group of people who they are at war with.
 
altmin said:
The Guardian:

At least 27 Palestinians killed and dozens wounded by Israeli fire near food distribution point, say local health authorities​

At least 27 Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded by Israeli fire near a food distribution site in the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, local health authorities said.

It is the third consecutive day of similar incidents as Israel attempts to impose a new aid distribution regime on the Gaza Strip, which it has been blockading for weeks.

The Israeli military said its forces had opened fire on a group of individuals who had left designated access routes near the distribution centre in Rafah.

Journalists have not been able to independently the casualty count, but Reuters reports a spokesperson for the International Committee of the Red Cross told the news agency its field hospital in Rafah received 184 casualties, adding that 19 of those were declared dead upon arrival, and eight died of their wounds shortly after.
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This is why Israel wants to control all of Gaza, remove Hamas entirely or as much as possible and ensure that aid is getting where it needs to go.

It's hilarious that anyone believes that Israel, who has taken meaningful steps to not kill civilians, is now opening fire on people trying to get food.
 
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