Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

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Paine said:
Oh okay, I thought maybe they ran on ending elections and promoting Islamic theocracy. You’re saying that’s not the case though? I’m shocked.
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I'm not saying that wasn't part of their platform. I'm saying I'm aware of the social services and hating Israel.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not saying that wasn't part of their platform. I'm saying I'm aware of the social services and hating Israel.
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The anti-Israel side would have significantly more credibility if they were just honest about the fact that the platform is really always about destroying Israel.
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not saying that wasn't part of their platform. I'm saying I'm aware of the social services and hating Israel.
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Oh, so you’re spouting off without really knowing what you’re talking about, as usual.

Hamas ran in 2006 on the social services they were already providing, anti-corruption, and basic governance, filling a vacuum left by Fatah’s dysfunction and cronyism. That’s why they won.

But because Palestinians voted for the party actually delivering services, you’ve decided that means they don’t want democracy? Right.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
The anti-Israel side would have significantly more credibility if they were just honest about the fact that the platform is really always about destroying Israel.
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Oh right, because anyone who criticizes Israeli policy or supports Palestinian rights must secretly be plotting Israel’s destruction. What a bad-faith talking point.

Plenty of people, including Israelis and Jews around the world, oppose the occupation, settlement expansion, and apartheid without calling for Israel’s destruction. What you’re really saying is that any position that challenges the current status quo, where millions of Palestinians live under military rule with no political rights, is inherently illegitimate.
 
Paine said:
Oh, so you’re spouting off without really knowing what you’re talking about, as usual.

Hamas ran in 2006 on the social services they were already providing, anti-corruption, and basic governance, filling a vacuum left by Fatah’s dysfunction and cronyism. That’s why they won.

But because Palestinians voted for the party actually delivering services, you’ve decided that means they don’t want democracy? Right.
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No.....voting for an Islamist/terrorist group comes with certain risks.

Islamism/Islamic Fundamentalism isn't exactly associated with basic tenants of freedom....
 
ZenMode said:
No.....voting for an Islamist/terrorist group comes with certain risks.

Islamism/Islamic Fundamentalism isn't associated with basic tenants of freedom....
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We just established that Hamas didn’t run on that in 2006. In fact, they intentionally moderated their image as I detailed. How does any of this mean the Palestinians don’t deserve or don’t want democracy?

You’re shifting the goalposts. First it was “they don’t want democracy because they voted for Hamas,” but now that it’s clear Hamas didn’t run on abolishing democracy, you’re falling back on vague claims about Islamism.

So again: how does participating in a democratic election, under occupation no less, show they don’t want democracy?
 
Paine said:
We just established that Hamas didn’t run on that in 2006. In fact, they intentionally moderated their image as I detailed. How does any of this mean the Palestinians don’t deserve democracy or don’t want democracy?
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If you're saying they could want democracy/freedom NOW.....sure, I'll buy that, but you don't elect an Islamist government if freedom/democracy is important to you.

I suspect they're having some buyer's remorse right about now.
 
ZenMode said:
If you're saying they could want democracy/freedom NOW.....sure, I'll buy that, but you don't elect an Islamist government if freedom/democracy is important to you.

I suspect they're having some buyer's remorse right about now.
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If Palestinians didn’t care about democracy, why would they participate in elections at all, especially under occupation and constant pressure?

Hamas won because Fatah was corrupt and failed to deliver, not because Palestinians wanted to reject democracy.
 
ZenMode said:
If you're saying they could want democracy/freedom NOW.....sure, I'll buy that, but you don't elect an Islamist government if freedom/democracy is important to you.

I suspect they're having some buyer's remorse right about now.
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Where does Netanyahu's yearslong support of Hamas as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority fit in to all of this? Does he get a pass for supporting an Islamist government?
 
Lando said:
I have to ask again. Are we currently arming both?

If disarmament is the preferred outcome, then shouldn't we stop arming the one side that we are currently arming?
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Potentially yes. Unfortunately, one side is starting to attack citizens and can easily be labeled domestic terrorists. Not sure the US can continue to act like the Hamas/Palestine supporters are just a pain in the rear end much longer.
 
Paine said:
If Palestinians didn’t care about democracy, why would they participate in elections at all, especially under occupation and constant pressure?
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Maybe they had other, More important priorities at that time? Maybe the only slightly care about democracy. Either way, you don't elect what is essentially a religious dictatorship without an awareness of electing a religious dictatorship.
 
ZenMode said:
Maybe they had other, More important priorities at that time? Maybe the only slightly care about democracy. Either way, you don't elect what is essentially a religious dictatorship without an awareness of electing a religious dictatorship.
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And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
 
RaiGuy said:
And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
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He shows a profound disinterest in learning on very specific subjects, which consistently align with maga identity markers. But, let’s not forget - he’s a common sense centrist with libertarian leanings.
 
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Lando said:
So keep arming the better armed side but make vacuous statements about how you’re sad. Got it.
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I think we arm the side most aligned with our values and strategic interests. We'd rather have Israel win than the alternative, because that is better for us. If we only gave money and weapons based on morality we'd have very little influence and our own interests would be compromised. Hell, we armed Stalin during World War II because he was fighting Hitler for us.
 
RaiGuy said:
And you ignore the fact it was Israel that blocked elections from happening again. The more you speak, the more you show that you don’t care to learn about the facts of what’s happened.
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Israel blocked elections for nearly 20 years? How did they "block" them and what is your support for that claim?
 
Paine said:
We just established that Hamas didn’t run on that in 2006. In fact, they intentionally moderated their image as I detailed. How does any of this mean the Palestinians don’t deserve or don’t want democracy?

You’re shifting the goalposts. First it was “they don’t want democracy because they voted for Hamas,” but now that it’s clear Hamas didn’t run on abolishing democracy, you’re falling back on vague claims about Islamism.

So again: how does participating in a democratic election, under occupation no less, show they don’t want democracy?
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You do know he’ll continually move the goalposts, right?
 
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