Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

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These are the types of admissions they wouldn’t make under the Biden Administration but feel free to make now because they won’t impact Trump’s support or create political pressure within his own party to pressure Bibi’s war cabinet in any way.

I think Biden did the right thing in coming to Israel’s aid after October 7 but I said at the time that he had to know that Bibi was an unreliable partner (and obviously he did know that). I thought the Biden Administration handled things pretty deftly for the first 6 plus months after the attack by Hamas — including putting Bibi on his back foot politically as Biden demonstrated how to make human contact with shell-shocked Israelis.

I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.

Now there are no restraints at all but I’m not entirely sure how much difference that is making in terms of outcomes for the average Palestinian.
 
nycfan said:
I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.
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What happened is that it became election year.

No American politician can afford to be seen as favoring a Muslim terrorist group over Israel. The reality doesn't matter -- the appearance is deadly. No American politician with national ambitions can be seen as favoring the interests of brown foreigners over white foreigners. And it's especially problematic because there have been so many Arab/Muslim bad guys in that conflict that ordinary Americans really can't keep up. They will see, "Biden is on the side of terrorists" and the election would have been over.

I don't think any Dem president of our lifetime would have acted differently than Biden did in this regard. Pub presidents would have been pulling the opposite way of course.
 
nycfan said:


These are the types of admissions they wouldn’t make under the Biden Administration but feel free to make now because they won’t impact Trump’s support or create political pressure within his own party to pressure Bibi’s war cabinet in any way.

I think Biden did the right thing in coming to Israel’s aid after October 7 but I said at the time that he had to know that Bibi was an unreliable partner (and obviously he did know that). I thought the Biden Administration handled things pretty deftly for the first 6 plus months after the attack by Hamas — including putting Bibi on his back foot politically as Biden demonstrated how to make human contact with shell-shocked Israelis.

I’m not sure if Biden’s cognitive decline or his deeply rooted dedication to Israel blinded his later policy decisions (or both) — there became no good options as Hamas refused to give up the hostages and the IDF clearly had a different agenda. The Biden Administration sometimes tried and mostly failed at restraining Israel and the IDF as things ground on, though at least got a ceasefire for a time.

Now there are no restraints at all but I’m not entirely sure how much difference that is making in terms of outcomes for the average Palestinian.
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I think Biden could have and should have used the carrot of US arms to get more concessions. Reagan held delivery of F-16s from Israel to force them to withdraw from Lebanon in 83. It's effective and of course didn't seem to hurt Reagan during that election cycle.

And it's not like Biden's virtual capitulation to Israel really helped Harris or down ballot. Democrats are going to get moderate Jewish votes and money while Republicans are going to get evangelicals and more Hardline Jewish votes and money. I don't think a fair, more even-handed policy is really going to make much difference with that block. It might help a lot with people that don't like seeing babies blown up with American weapons, and of course, its the right thing to do.
 
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heelslegup said:
Israel releasing Marwan Barghouti (a la Mandela in South Africa) is the key to a peaceful solution
www.lemonde.fr

Marwan Barghouti, jailed in Israel since 2002, symbolizes ordeal of Palestinian prisoners

The leader of the second Intifada, incarcerated since 2002, has been subject to an extremely brutal detention regime in an Israeli prison since October 7.
www.lemonde.fr www.lemonde.fr
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He could be particularly useful against Hamas. I know he seems to have broken with Fatah, but he could unite many against Hamas.
 
nycfan said:
Tough story to watch



Related

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“…
Relief for the people of Gaza is nowhere in sight. As the economic chaos created by Trump’s tariff plan dominates news headlines across the West, Gaza is conveniently out of sight and out of mind for Israel as it continues its campaign of horror. As the world squabbles about supply chains and semiconductors, the people of Gaza enter a new phase of death and destruction.

As the days roll on and the death toll piles up, how will future generations remember the role we played in this disaster? Will they view us, and Trump, as peacemakers and not the ones that looked away? It is not our responsibility or in our interest to save the world, true, but it’s also naive to believe that we do not play a sizable role in permitting Israel’s continued bombardment and starvation of the Palestinian people. Something must change and quickly or the blood of innocents will forever be stapled to the recorded rule of Trump and the MAGA right….”
 
nycfan said:
Tough story to watch



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And then, Israel and it's supporters try to argue in a straight face that civilians aren't targeted. Imagine if the tables were turned and thousands of Israeli children were on the brink of literally dying from starvation? How would the US react in that situation? Israel (and the US) have been dehumanizing Palestinians for so long that many people just read this as a footnote and carry on with their lives. People had more concern about the Notre Dame Cathedral burning than thousands of children starving. This stuff takes a mental toll when you see what's happening and not only does our government here not care, they will try to detain and deport you if you speak out against it. This world is f***** up.
 
altmin said:
www.theguardian.com

Israel has no duty to allow UN aid agency into Gaza, says US state department lawyer

Joshua Simmons tells international court of justice that Israel’s concerns about Unwra are ‘credible’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Last week, Donald Trump said he had personally urged Benjamin Netanyahu to allow aid into Gaza, but Israel has said the ban would continue until all hostages held by Hamas are released. Trump said he told Israel’s prime minister: “We have got to be good to Gaza.”

In December, the UN general assembly asked the ICJ to give an advisory opinion on Israel’s obligations as an occupying power to provide humanitarian aid, and whether the ban on cooperation and contact with Unrwa breaches its privileges and immunities as a UN body.

I think the right thing to do is to allow aid, but I understand Israel not wanting UNRWA to be the organization providing it.

I also understand Israel's desire to leverage civilians in Gaza to get their civilian hostages back from the terrorists. The problem that Israel continues to face is the question of how you fight a war against people who want to maximize civilian causalities? Even if Israel continues to cut-off all aid, I doubt it would matter to Hamas. If Hamas cared about civilian causalities, they would have built underground civilian bunkers rather than tunnels for the terroist fighters. If they cared about civilians, they'd at least allow the civilians to hide in the tunnels - they don't. If they cared about civilians, they wouldn't use them as human shields to maximize their deaths.

So, Israel, as they have multiple times, finds themselves in the awkward situation of fighting against people who no moral compass, while having to taken on moral obligations for not only Israelis but also Palestinians.
 
ZenMode said:
Last week, Donald Trump said he had personally urged Benjamin Netanyahu to allow aid into Gaza, but Israel has said the ban would continue until all hostages held by Hamas are released. Trump said he told Israel’s prime minister: “We have got to be good to Gaza.”

In December, the UN general assembly asked the ICJ to give an advisory opinion on Israel’s obligations as an occupying power to provide humanitarian aid, and whether the ban on cooperation and contact with Unrwa breaches its privileges and immunities as a UN body.

I think the right thing to do is to allow aid, but I understand Israel not wanting UNRWA to be the organization providing it.

I also understand Israel's desire to leverage civilians in Gaza to get their civilian hostages back from the terrorists. The problem that Israel continues to face is the question of how you fight a war against people who want to maximize civilian causalities? Even if Israel continues to cut-off all aid, I doubt it would matter to Hamas. If Hamas cared about civilian causalities, they would have built underground civilian bunkers rather than tunnels for the terroist fighters. If they cared about civilians, they'd at least allow the civilians to hide in the tunnels - they don't. If they cared about civilians, they wouldn't use them as human shields to maximize their deaths.

So, Israel, as they have multiple times, finds themselves in the awkward situation of fighting against people who no moral compass, while having to taken on moral obligations for not only Israelis but also Palestinians.
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You think Israel is taking on moral obligations? Israel is just as bad, or worse, than Hamas in terms of morality
 
RaiGuy said:
Hmm, starving a population, sniping women and children,
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Hamas uses women and children to kill Israelis. Hamas makes them "soldiers". As a result, IDF is in a no win situation where they have to consider literally any and every person as a threat... armed with weapons or explosives. Remember, IDF killed 3 hostages, who were trying to surrender to them, because they thought they were terrorists.
RaiGuy said:
bombing refugee camps, leveling all of Gaza, etc...
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Yep, Hamas should stop using refugee camps and other civilian locations to hide their terrorists leaders.
RaiGuy said:
So, you think those show morality? are you serious?
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I think the civilian death toll would be astronomically higher if IDF was behaving in the way people like you portray them. Again, they are fighting against people who WANT to maximize civilian death.

EDIT: I think Israel should allow non-UNRWA aid in.
 
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RaiGuy said:
You think Israel is taking on moral obligations? Israel is just as bad, or worse, than Hamas in terms of morality
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Even if we are to believe Israel wants all Palestinians dead, we know Hamas wants all Israeli citizens dead. So then it goes to the next level. Hamas kills gays for being gay. Does Israel? No. Supposedly, Palestinians don’t support Hamas. That’s what we hear at least. Israel overall supports their government.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
Even if we are to believe Israel wants all Palestinians dead, we know Hamas wants all Israeli citizens dead.
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Neither side wants that. Maybe some extremists on both sides, but the whole organizations? No. Not even close.

It's impossible to look at the actual facts on the ground and come away with an understanding that there is anything but perfect equivalence between the sides. This didn't start in 2023. Gaza was illegally blockaded for a decade and a half, with gross human rights violations committed by the Israelis.

Again, why does everything have to be black and white for you guys? Is it really hard for you to comprehend that there are no good guys in a conflict like this. If Israel was good, the situation would have been resolved long ago. Same with Hamas.
 
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