Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

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HintonJamesHeel said:
The world is full of bad guys and worse guys. You have to choose who to put your weight behind. Israel is full of bad guys but as long as they are better than the worst - go with it. And i think they are.
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What the hell is wrong with telling them they are on their own? Why do we have to or even want to be part on this? What's in it for us?

They may be better but it's such a low bar that I don't care to pay the moral or physical price to support them or anybody else in the ME any more. I can see doing what's necessary to keep the Camp David accords working, if nothing else, just from the curiosity factor. Even with its flaws and warts , it's probably the closest thing to a workable agreement to ever come out of that mess.
 
finesse said:
What the hell is wrong with telling them they are on their own? Why do we have to or even want to be part on this? What's in it for us?

They may be better but it's such a low bar that I don't care to pay the moral or physical price to support them or anybody else in the ME any more. I can see doing what's necessary to keep the Camp David accords working, if nothing else, just from the curiosity factor. Even with its flaws and warts , it's probably the closest thing to a workable agreement to ever come out of that mess.
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You could almost say that about any conflict (Ukraine, etc.). A country needs partners. You have to choose a side - bad or worse. If you don’t choose, when the worse folks come for you, which they will, then no one will help you.
 
finesse said:
What the hell is wrong with telling them they are on their own? Why do we have to or even want to be part on this? What's in it for us?

They may be better but it's such a low bar that I don't care to pay the moral or physical price to support them or anybody else in the ME any more. I can see doing what's necessary to keep the Camp David accords working, if nothing else, just from the curiosity factor. Even with its flaws and warts , it's probably the closest thing to a workable agreement to ever come out of that mess.
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Their enemies are our enemies. They are taking out a lot of people who would love to harm us.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
You could almost say that about any conflict (Ukraine, etc.). A country needs partners. You have to choose a side - bad or worse. If you don’t choose, when the worse folks come for you, which they will, then no one will help you.
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They are one of the most, if not the most, polarizing countries in the world to support. One of the reasons so many terrorists hate us is because of the number of times we've covered Israel's ass because of our veto in the UN. I don't want to be their sugar daddy any more. I don't like the screwing we get from them. They sell our secrets, treat us with contempt because we're such a pushover for them and they don't die in our battles, although they killed our sailors when they bombed the Liberty. It's too "polarizing" for them to actually send soldiers to anywhere we're fighting. Who needs those friends?

This is not like supporting the Ukraine or anybody else, except maybe Taiwan.
 
finesse said:
They are one of the most, if not the most, polarizing countries in the world to support. One of the reasons so many terrorists hate us is because of the number of times we've covered Israel's ass because of our veto in the UN. I don't want to be their sugar daddy any more. I don't like the screwing we get from them. They sell our secrets, treat us with contempt because we're such a pushover for them and they don't die in our battles, although they killed our sailors when they bombed the Liberty. It's too "polarizing" for them to actually send soldiers to anywhere we're fighting. Who needs those friends?

This is not like supporting the Ukraine or anybody else, except maybe Taiwan.
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They are polarizing but part of it is absolutely because they are Jewish. There are other aspects to it but countries should absolutely push against the anti-Semitic aspect of the hate.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
They are polarizing but part of it is absolutely because they are Jewish. There are other aspects to it but countries should absolutely push against the anti-Semitic aspect of the hate.
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That's such a dumb argument. The people in Gaza and Lebanon have as much right to the claim of being Semite as the Israelis do. The only Abrahamic religion that doesn't is Christianity and they feel like Paul stole it fair and square. After all , Jesus died a Jew.

This has nothing to do with them being Jewish. It's about them turning into jackasses over the last 50 years. I was a diehard supporter into 20s and then they started getting meaner. Tougher didn't bother me. the meanness did and has more and more. I'm sick of it and sick of being seen to support it.

Once again, what's in it for us?
 
finesse said:
That's such a dumb argument. The people in Gaza and Lebanon have as much right to the claim of being Semite as the Israelis do. The only Abrahamic religion that doesn't is Christianity and they feel like Paul stole it fair and square. After all , Jesus died a Jew.

This has nothing to do with them being Jewish. It's about them turning into jackasses over the last 50 years. I was a diehard supporter into 20s and then they started getting meaner. Tougher didn't bother me. the meanness did and has more and more. I'm sick of it and sick of being seen to support it.

Once again, what's in it for us?
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They are a check on a nuclear Iran and a dangerous Syrian regime. They are a westernized democracy surrounded by Islamist theocracies. Their values align closely with our own. Their enemies are our enemies. There is plenty in it for us.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
They are a check on a nuclear Iran and a dangerous Syrian regime. They are a westernized democracy surrounded by Islamist theocracies. Their values align closely with our own. Their enemies are our enemies. There is plenty in it for us.
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Nothing worth this cost. It's fine if you want to believe this but something actually fact based would go a long way when you try to sell it.

Think I'm about done with you under any name. Turns out it wasn't the blue cups.
 
finesse said:
Nothing worth this cost. It's fine if you want to believe this but something actually fact based would go a long way when you try to sell it.

Think I'm about done with you under any name. Turns out it wasn't the blue cups.
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“I happen to disagree with you here, so I’m just done talking to you in general.” Says much more about you than it does me. If you want nothing more than an echo chamber that is certainly your choice. What a boring existence that would be, but I guess you might feel safer that way.
 
finesse said:
Nothing worth this cost. It's fine if you want to believe this but something actually fact based would go a long way when you try to sell it.

Think I'm about done with you under any name. Turns out it wasn't the blue cups.
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It’s money for us. It is absolutely worth the cost.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
It’s money for us. It is absolutely worth the cost.
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How close does it come to covering the 158 billion in direct military aid we've given them. That doesn't count what they made selling our stuff to the Chinese and who knows who else.

Do you think they'd quit guarding against the terrorists if we ended most of our support? Do you think they'd change (or could change) their government more than they have? If they would, are they the friends we need? What's really in it for us and not this specious rhetoric you and the other guy are spewing?
 
finesse said:
How close does it come to covering the 158 billion in direct military aid we've given them. That doesn't count what they made selling our stuff to the Chinese and who knows who else.

Do you think they'd quit guarding against the terrorists if we ended most of our support? Do you think they'd change (or could change) their government more than they have? If they would, are they the friends we need? What's really in it for us and not this specious rhetoric you and the other guy are spewing?
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They’d align with China or Russia instead, which would be terrible for us. There’s a reason support for Israel is bipartisan in Washington and has been for generations. People much more informed than you and I realize that it is in our best interests. But by all means, earmuffs…
 
America has been pretty good about letting Vietnamese relocate to the United States after 1975 and continue to do so today. And in exchange, Vietnamese people and their children have been and continue to be real assets to America. They have embraced our values and they work harder and study harder than Americans of European ancestry. They are the very embodiment of the supposed American ideal of prosperity through education and hard work. I personally believe America is a better place to live because of all the Vietnamese that have come here. Which Middle East country has stepped forward to allow Palestinians to settle in their countries, given them the opportunity to succeed, made their host country better the way America has done with Vietnamese?
 
finesse said:
How close does it come to covering the 158 billion in direct military aid we've given them. That doesn't count what they made selling our stuff to the Chinese and who knows who else.

Do you think they'd quit guarding against the terrorists if we ended most of our support? Do you think they'd change (or could change) their government more than they have? If they would, are they the friends we need? What's really in it for us and not this specious rhetoric you and the other guy are spewing?
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We get it - you don’t support Israel and the US supporting them. They are a democracy in a spot in the world that doesn’t have it. The costs are kind of made up. If we’ve learned anything over the last 5 years or so, the deficits and spending is just kind of made up.
 
05C40 said:
America has been pretty good about letting Vietnamese relocate to the United States after 1975 and continue to do so today. And in exchange, Vietnamese people and their children have been and continue to be real assets to America. They have embraced our values and they work harder and study harder than Americans of European ancestry. They are the very embodiment of the supposed American ideal of prosperity through education and hard work. I personally believe America is a better place to live because of all the Vietnamese that have come here. Which Middle East country has stepped forward to allow Palestinians to settle in their countries, given them the opportunity to succeed, made their host country better the way America has done with Vietnamese?
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This is where I challenge people (not you, or at least not here) to point out any wave of immigration that has ended up hurting the US as a whole. Sure, there were short term economic disruptions and social unrest, since we've never been short of xenophobes. But the lows led to higher highs. WE did the people and the skills they bring. Really wish we could revisit the whole guest worker idea, let it be the start of a screening process without the higher education of wealth to get a look and separate the whole immigration/drug enforcement issue.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
We get it - you don’t support Israel and the US supporting them. They are a democracy in a spot in the world that doesn’t have it. The costs are kind of made up. If we’ve learned anything over the last 5 years or so, the deficits and spending is just kind of made up.
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If you think Bibi is a democratic leader ,you were brainwashed a long time ago. You're still making stuff up.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Their values align closely with our own.
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That used to be true, but it stopped being true a while ago. Their values are sorta like ours on some issues. Now, I suppose if you're a MAGA and cruelty is the point for you, then you'd love Netanyahu, but in terms of the values of the average American and the national interest of the U.S., there isn't much overlap.

I am so done with Israel, which is becoming little more than a fundamentalist theocracy. A different theocracy than, say, Iran. Maybe a better one, but I don't like theocracies at all. Again, if you're a MAGA, theocracy is probably feature not bug, but I'm very happy with my political ideology of "do the right thing, not the thing that you think God or Karl Marx told you."
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
They’d align with China or Russia instead, which would be terrible for us. There’s a reason support for Israel is bipartisan in Washington and has been for generations. People much more informed than you and I realize that it is in our best interests. But by all means, earmuffs…
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The best interests of America are not why the US supports Israel. The weird belief structure of evangelical Christians is. To a lesser extent, it's because Jews outnumber Muslims. And also, Americans generally hate Muslims, far more than Jews.
 
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