Jan 6 thread

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It'll be interesting to see who he ends up pardoning.

Here is Trump's response:

"adding he will act on his “first day,” possibly including people who pleaded guilty—though he said there “may be some exceptions” for people who were “radical” or “crazy.”"

So I think we can expect anyone that walked into Congress without violence or without damaging anything will definitely be pardoned. Then you need to start ranking the groups for most likely to less likely to be pardoned.

What about the guys that stole souvenirs like the lectern or the guy that ended up in Pelosi's office? I'm guessing probably pardoned.

Then you have the guys that were breaking windows and doors. I'm guessing probably pardoned but maybe not.

Then you have the guys that assaulted a police officers. I would guess those guys would not get a pardon but wouldn't be totally surprised if they did.

Another question would be the oathkeepers and the proud boys that got very long sentences but didn't commit any violence. I would also not be surprised if those guys got pardoned.
 
If current "legal" theory holds, that's damned mixed bag of losers and looneys to let out with an inability to plead the 5th. It might get entertaining in a couple of years after midterm elections.
 
Three predictions:

1. Trump's pardons of J6 people will not be popular nationally and will be an unwanted negative story for him in his first few weeks.

2. The unhappiness with Trump will be mitigated to at least some extent by Biden's pardon of Hunter and any other controversial pardons Biden might issue. Not saying they're anywhere close to the same category, but a whole bunch of people will conflate them.

3. None of this will lead to any action on what we really need, which a complete reexamination and SEVERE limiting of the presidential pardon power.
 
lawtig02 said:
3. None of this will lead to any action on what we really need, which a complete reexamination and SEVERE limiting of the presidential pardon power.
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If we ever find the ability to pass a constitutional amendment, I would hope we would be addressing many of the bigger fish that need frying.

You and I agree that the pardon power has the potential to be severely misused, it's also true that -- so far, at least -- it hasn't been abused in any alarming way. Most of the rule-of-law-threatening pardons were issued by Trump, and it remains to be seen if they continue after he's gone. We do need, let's say, sheriffs to understand that they have to follow court rulings or they will be jailed for contempt, and they shouldn't think, "oh, the president has my back." We do not need criminal mayors fishing around for pardons from the other party.

But still, eliminating presidential immunity would be more pressing (though that could likely be included in the same amendment), and all sorts of things are more important.
 
I would be fine getting rid of President pardons. We have a legal system. If something about it is not working, then fix it. Don't give Presidents the power to circumvent it.
 
I don't see the political will to change it. It is a presidential power that goes back to Washington. I don' think a whole lot of people are going to rush to change it over, essentially, Hunter Biden. It's an old tradition and has been useful to both sides.
 
finesse said:
I don't see the political will to change it. It is a presidential power that goes back to Washington. I don' think a whole lot of people are going to rush to change it over, essentially, Hunter Biden. It's an old tradition and has been useful to both sides.
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I would say with the presidential immunity ruling, that changes things some. Add that ruling with pardon powers and a president could do really bad things with legal protections.

There was a time where it was debatable whether using the pardon power to obstruct an investigation was illegal. Now a president knows he can do far more than that.
 
it's less that I disagree than that I don't think anyone will spend the political capital in pushing it.
 
ChileG said:
So, if Trump thwarted the will of the people somehow and was able to stay in power, you wouldn’t take up arms against what would by definition be a tyrannical government?
In other words, there would be violence as a result of the situation you described. And rightly so.
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Moving from the other thread....

In the situation I described, where Trump was successful with his lawsuits, I wouldn't blame Trump, I would blame the judges who made the rulings and decision to nullify some number of votes.

Do you blame OJ Simpson for the fact that he was found not guilty for the murder of two people?
 
thebruinbleedstarheelblue said:
all of this can't be true. If the things you mentioned were successful, the government would have been overthrown. I'd argue he tried multiple ways...
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This might just be a difference in how we view the term overthrow or overthrown. It would be the result of a successful insurrection.

Overthrowing the government, in my mind, involves an uprising, rioting and violence.

Let's say that we lived in an alternate world where insanity ruled and Trump was actually successful with some of his 90 or 100 lawsuits. Let's say that enough judges ruled, because of violations of state constitutions, that specific ballots/votes should be thrown out and that resulted in Trump actually being declared the winner of the 2020 election. I wouldn't describe that as the government being overthrown. I would describe it as one of the darkest days for democracy, but not an actual overthrowing of the government.

January 6th, for a very small percentage of the rioters, may have been an attempted insurrection or overthrowing up the government. I'm not even convinced that's the case because there is simply no way that a group of unarmed people was going to overthrow the government. Even if they were armed with AR-15s, they weren't going to overthrow the government. It may have taken longer to resolve the situation, but the certification would have eventually been completed.
 
finesse said:
I don't see the political will to change it. It is a presidential power that goes back to Washington. I don' think a whole lot of people are going to rush to change it over, essentially, Hunter Biden. It's an old tradition and has been useful to both sides.
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IMO, there are a great many things about our political system that are either outdated or being abused and severely need reforming or simply abolishing - pardons, filibusters, gerrymandering, lifetime appointments, the electoral college, the Second Amendment, and on and on - but it is extremely unlikely that any of these things are going to be reformed in our lifetimes, because Republicans realize that nearly all of these things work to their advantage and so they'll give them up over their dead bodies, perhaps literally. They will block any attempts at reforming or fixing any of these items, or others. The only hope to pass many of these badly-needed reforms would be for Democrats to win sweeping, massive congressional and state victories as happened in the Great Depression, which allowed for the New Deal legislation to be passed. And I don't see that happening anytime soon or even within my lifetime, unfortunately.
 
ZenMode said:
Moving from the other thread....

In the situation I described, where Trump was successful with his lawsuits, I wouldn't blame Trump, I would blame the judges who made the rulings and decision to nullify some number of votes.

Do you blame OJ Simpson for the fact that he was found not guilty for the murder of two people?
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No, but I find him responsible for the murder of two people, and I would also consider Trump responsible and accountable.
Thanks for the analogy.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
IMO, there are a great many things about our political system that are either outdated or being abused and severely need reforming or simply abolishing - pardons, filibusters, gerrymandering, lifetime appointments, the electoral college, the Second Amendment, and on and on - but it is extremely unlikely that any of these things are going to be reformed in our lifetimes, because Republicans realize that nearly all of these things work to their advantage and so they'll give them up over their dead bodies, perhaps literally. They will block any attempts at reforming or fixing any of these items, or others. The only hope to pass many of these badly-needed reforms would be for Democrats to win sweeping, massive congressional and state victories as happened in the Great Depression, which allowed for the New Deal legislation to be passed. And I don't see that happening anytime soon or even within my lifetime, unfortunately.
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The other option is mass movement of people that forces Ds and Rs to pass these reforms. Not sure which one is less likely, but I’d wager a mass movement is more likely than a Democratic landslide ushering in these changes.

Mostly because we’ve had a Democratic landslide in recent history and they didn’t pursue these reforms.

Other alternative is building a coalition of D, I, and sympathetic Rs to pass specific reforms. You have some elected Rs paying lip service to unions and antitrust, for example. I don’t think they’ll do anything when the rubber meets the road, but it’s a possibility I guess.
 
Paine said:
The other option is mass movement of people that forces Ds and Rs to pass these reforms. Not sure which one is less likely, but I’d wager a mass movement is more likely than a Democratic landslide ushering in these changes.

Mostly because we’ve had a Democratic landslide in recent history and they didn’t pursue these reforms.

Other alternative is building a coalition of D, I, and sympathetic Rs to pass specific reforms. You have some elected Rs paying lip service to unions and antitrust, for example. I don’t think they’ll do anything when the rubber meets the road, but it’s a possibility I guess.
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Perhaps those are also options. I do fear that the only way it will happen is through either an armed rebellion or violent revolution, but unless things happen more quickly than I expect I don't see that happening, at least within the next 15 or 20 years.
 
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