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Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”
- Thread starter nycfan
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lawtig02
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That strikes me as a completely reasonable response to Russia's last absurd proposal. It's not something that could get a deal done, of course, but it communicates Ukraine will not cave. Between the timing of that brilliant drone attack and this response, I'm loving what we're seeing from Ukraine right now. All the Russia-loving MAGAs who have been telling us Ukraine is doomed can suck it.
mynameisbond
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Zelensky to Putin and Trump: FAFO
StrangePackage
Iconic Member
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Stolen
BlooVooDoo
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Maybe Tim Ballard and Jim Caviezel should make a movie about that.
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Ukraine making a bit of noise about how they were prevented from making deep strikes on Russia by the Biden folks.
Connecting some dots, but Trump made a post in the last week about how he had saved Russia in ways they didn't know about or something like that. That's doubtful. Or, perhaps in Trumps first couple of months Ukraine was humoring him to get him to play ball. So connecting the dots, maybe Ukraine is sending a message to Trump that he should play ball and he might have some influence with them. (Ukraine leveraging every avenue for advantage. Not trying to say this was the only reason for the deep strikes.)
Connecting some dots, but Trump made a post in the last week about how he had saved Russia in ways they didn't know about or something like that. That's doubtful. Or, perhaps in Trumps first couple of months Ukraine was humoring him to get him to play ball. So connecting the dots, maybe Ukraine is sending a message to Trump that he should play ball and he might have some influence with them. (Ukraine leveraging every avenue for advantage. Not trying to say this was the only reason for the deep strikes.)
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Also, they know Trump will reflexively be critical of anything Biden did, so if they say Biden wouldn't let them make deep strikes on Russia, Trump will pretty much have to be all for it (and claim it was his idea)...
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Ukraine needed to do this alone in order to create their own leverage against Putin. Russia would never consider any peace plan if US or EU were heavily involved in the planning or logistics of the operation. Plus, there’s the whole WWIII to worry about.
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As much as anything, they said that to communicate to Trump that he isn’t effectual, without saying he isn’t effectual. Same reason why they’re suggesting Biden was the cause for prolonging the war. It’s manipulation of Trump bc he’s the easiest US president to manipulate, by multiples, which is astounding when George W. Bush, Dipshit in Chief, is on the board. If they strategically trigger Trump’s patently obvious inferiority and aggrievement complexes they could potentially trigger substantially more US aid.
Additionally, it’s obvious the US is full of bad faith and plainly stupid partners, in addition to possessing SigInt security comparable to Johnny passing Janey notes in their 4th grade classroom.
Additionally, it’s obvious the US is full of bad faith and plainly stupid partners, in addition to possessing SigInt security comparable to Johnny passing Janey notes in their 4th grade classroom.
mynameisbond
Distinguished Member
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The Taco In Chief only cares about getting a win for himself. He wants a Nobel peace prize for brokering a deal. Ukraine had no choice but to take the bull by the horns. Brilliant move. I hope it pays dividends with the EU and puts some pressure on La Donald to distance himself from Putin.
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lawtig02
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Ram, could you explain what you're saying here? You and I disagree about most things, but I have a hunch we agree much more about Russia-Ukraine than about most other things. But as for "WWIII," I don't see any way a nuclear war is less likely in a world in which the US is strongly and unequivocally on the side of Ukrainian survival and success, as opposed to a world in which the US is either pro-Russia or neutral. I could buy that Russia needs to know Ukraine is capable of inflicting significant damage before a reasonable resolution is possible. I'm having a harder time buying that the US essentially dropping out of this conflict and leaving Ukraine to defend itself makes a "WWIII" less likely.
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In re WW3: The notion that Vlad "the Ras" Putin only wants a part of Ukraine is absurd. Vlad the Ras only wants the Eastern part of Ukraine in the same way that Hitler only wanted the Sudetenland. Does anyone doubt that any resolution of the Ukranian situation that met with Vlad the Ras' approval would be hailed by St. Donald of Mar-a-Lago as "Peace for our time"? IMO, the key difference between the Sudetenland and the part of Ukraine that Vlad the Ras claims is all he wants, is that the potential ultimate adversaries in this situation are armed with nuclear weapons. Fortunately for the US, Ukraine seems to have prioritized the reduction of Russian's nuclear strike force.
EVERY single action taken by St. Donald of Mar-a-Lago in this situation just screams that Vlad the Ras must have some truly awful Kompromat on St. Donald.
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No, I just meant that it wouldn't be a good look for the US/EU to be heavily involved in a military action that destroyed significant aircraft and equipment, etc. 3,000 miles in the interior of Russia. That moves the needle on the old doomsday clock. Russia's internal investigation will reveal that Ukraine was not assisted by the Western Allies and did not even give them a heads up on the mission.
Otherwise, I'm thrilled with what the Ukrainians accomplished. It's a game changer, further weakening Russia and significantly strengthening Ukraine's hand. Once the dust settles, and Putin gets his "revenge" by bombing Kiev and other parts of Ukraine, this action just might get us closer to a peace agreement. Z showed the world and the US (Trump) that Ukraine does have a card or two to play.
lawtig02
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I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that today's talks did not result in much progress.
Russian and Ukrainian delegates met in Istanbul on Monday for their second set of direct peace talks, a day after Kyiv launched a shock drone attack on Russia’s nuclear-capable bombers, in an operation that President Volodymyr Zelensky said was a year and a half in the making.
The talks began late and lasted barely over an hour. Although both sides agreed to work on a new prisoner exchange, statements from the two sets of delegations suggested that little had been achieved to bridge the gulf between their positions, particularly on the matter of a ceasefire.
After the initial round of discussions in the Turkish city last month – the first between the warring countries since soon after Russia’s full-scale invasion in early 2022 – both sides agreed to share their conditions for a full ceasefire and a potentially lasting peace.
Russian state media agencies reported that Russia laid out two ceasefire “options” in its peace memorandum.
In the first option, Moscow will ask for the complete withdrawal of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (UAF) from Ukraine’s mainland Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia regions, RIA Novosti reported. Russia annexed those regions during its invasion in 2022, but has been unable to fully capture them in the years since.
In the second option, called a “package deal,” the UAF would have to demobilize, and all foreign military aid to Kyiv, including intelligence, would be halted, a summary of the memorandum published by RIA Novosti said.
Ukraine would also be prohibited from deploying and mobilizing its armed forces, and martial law in Ukraine would need to be lifted, with elections to be held no later than 100 days after it is lifted, the memorandum outlined.
It is not clear whether Ukraine can choose just one of the options, or whether it must agree to both.
The maximalist demands expand on the terms set by Russia during the 2022 trilateral talks held in Turkey.
In the past, Ukraine has refused Russian proposals for territorial concessions in exchange for peace.
Zelensky criticized Russia for not sharing its memorandum ahead of time. “Despite this,” he said before the talks began, “we will attempt to achieve at least some progress on the path toward peace.”
Russian and Ukrainian delegates met in Istanbul on Monday for their second set of direct peace talks, a day after Kyiv launched a shock drone attack on Russia’s nuclear-capable bombers, in an operation that President Volodymyr Zelensky said was a year and a half in the making.
The talks began late and lasted barely over an hour. Although both sides agreed to work on a new prisoner exchange, statements from the two sets of delegations suggested that little had been achieved to bridge the gulf between their positions, particularly on the matter of a ceasefire.
After the initial round of discussions in the Turkish city last month – the first between the warring countries since soon after Russia’s full-scale invasion in early 2022 – both sides agreed to share their conditions for a full ceasefire and a potentially lasting peace.
Russian state media agencies reported that Russia laid out two ceasefire “options” in its peace memorandum.
In the first option, Moscow will ask for the complete withdrawal of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (UAF) from Ukraine’s mainland Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia regions, RIA Novosti reported. Russia annexed those regions during its invasion in 2022, but has been unable to fully capture them in the years since.
In the second option, called a “package deal,” the UAF would have to demobilize, and all foreign military aid to Kyiv, including intelligence, would be halted, a summary of the memorandum published by RIA Novosti said.
Ukraine would also be prohibited from deploying and mobilizing its armed forces, and martial law in Ukraine would need to be lifted, with elections to be held no later than 100 days after it is lifted, the memorandum outlined.
It is not clear whether Ukraine can choose just one of the options, or whether it must agree to both.
The maximalist demands expand on the terms set by Russia during the 2022 trilateral talks held in Turkey.
In the past, Ukraine has refused Russian proposals for territorial concessions in exchange for peace.
Zelensky criticized Russia for not sharing its memorandum ahead of time. “Despite this,” he said before the talks began, “we will attempt to achieve at least some progress on the path toward peace.”
superrific
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1. Whether they had to do it alone, they didn't have to say they were alone. That message was aimed at its "allies" in Washington, who seem to have completely given up on Ukraine.
2. Usually, when countries have allies, it makes them stronger. For Ukraine to have acted with EU support would put the Russians staring down the barrel of a larger gun. After all, if the EU was involved, then its assistance would not be theoretical. Russia would be given a sign that the EU means business.
It is hard for me to imagine how lying about having support from allies would benefit Ukraine in any way.
3. The reason Ukraine did it on its own is that it couldn't find a partner it could rely on. The Ukrainians aren't stupid: they know Trump was receiving national security briefings starting last summer. And of course Congress was receiving them as well. If the Ukrainians were to enlist US help, the Russians would have been ready and the plan would have failed. It needed to be a surprise job, which would be impossible if Trump knew anything about it.
whatntarnation
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Ukraine has struck the Crimean Bridge. Detonated a large amount of explosive on a underwater support.