Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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gtyellowjacket said:
And the fall of the Soviet Union didn't happen because all that money we spent on tanks and fighter jets. It was because the Soviet people decided they didn't want to live like that anymore.
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Right. The people just suddenly decided they didn't like it. I guess North Koreans and Cubans and Nicaraguans are just stupid or have really low standards.

I don't know if our tanks or fighter jet spending caused the downfall. The Soviets spent way too much money on the military; was that because of the US military spending, or because the US military spending made it easier to justify what the Soviets wanted to do anyway? Military production is much easier in a non-market economy than anything else, and especially when so much resource allocation is political in nature.

But more generally, the biggest factor for the Soviet economy was the lack of international trade. So think about that. Also relevant was the fact that the economy was set up to be "communist" but the Soviet Union was an empire (hence the need for military production).
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Pretty much the same thing. We can't rerun history so it's impossible to know but when Boris Yeltsin came to visit the United States in 1990, he said we've lost the Cold war. He didn't say that because he was touring a military base. He was touring a grocery store. And the fall of the Soviet Union didn't happen because all that money we spent on tanks and fighter jets. It was because the Soviet people decided they didn't want to live like that anymore.

So if you're just concerned about us, if we hadn't been fighting the Cold war, we save save a bunch of money, we don't reduce our University spending, there is a push for universal healthcare right around the time of Clinton, and we get lower taxes.
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My concern about us (and will add our economy) has to do about the ole an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We needed a robust military to at least discourage Russian, China, NK and other communist aggressors. Did we screw it up at times? Yep.

And I think you are overlooking that part of the communist "business model" was aggression taking over others and resources. They depended on that to fund their corrupt economy. When we reasonably contained them for an extended period, their economy couldn't take it and collapsed. If we had not contained, then their economy wouldn't have collapsed. If we hadn't contained then what kind of mischief would they have caused in the Middle East, Suez canal and other major choke points? For sure they would have.

We had good intelligence on what they would have done in the vacuum. So saying we will never know won't cut it.
 
BlueSmoke said:
My concern about us (and will add our economy) has to do about the ole an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We needed a robust military to at least discourage Russian, China, NK and other communist aggressors. Did we screw it up at times? Yep.

And I think you are overlooking that part of the communist "business model" was aggression taking over others and resources. They depended on that to fund their corrupt economy. When we reasonably contained them for an extended period, their economy couldn't take it and collapsed. If we had not contained, then their economy wouldn't have collapsed. If we hadn't contained then what kind of mischief would they have caused in the Middle East, Suez canal and other major choke points? For sure they would have.

We had good intelligence on what they would have done in the vacuum. So saying we will never know won't cut it.
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There were a lot of unknowns. They were wrong on stuff and we were wrong on stuff. Domino theory was widely believed but it's since been discredited. No need to go back to it.

And if their business plan was to take over a lot of countries and seize their resources, they should have been better businessmen. At least after world war II. They were paying millions which would be billions today to prop up Cuba and North Korean economies. Vietnam played Russia against China.

If they were really hoping to take over countries and seize their resources, they should have been using Britain and the US as a model. We knew how to keep those communists out and keep countries free. Free to sell us oil and bananas.
 
I just looked at Fitzpatrick's official House site. Nowhere does it specify whether he is R or D. I had to get that from wikipedia. Maybe I just didn't see it, but it sure seems as though he's trying to hide his affiliation. Probably for good reason.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
There were a lot of unknowns. They were wrong on stuff and we were wrong on stuff. Domino theory was widely believed but it's since been discredited. No need to go back to it.

And if their business plan was to take over a lot of countries and seize their resources, they should have been better businessmen. At least after world war II. They were paying millions which would be billions today to prop up Cuba and North Korean economies. Vietnam played Russia against China.

If they were really hoping to take over countries and seize their resources, they should have been using Britain and the US as a model. We knew how to keep those communists out and keep countries free. Free to sell us oil and bananas.
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Do you know how to play chess? If you do, then you know you have to think like a bunch of moves in advance. Cuba for them was an advanced move. Being on our doorsteps, as the Cuban missile crisis demonstrated, it had all kinds of leverage opportunity for the future.

Gaining leverage is the name of the game. And they were definitely intent on gaining leverage over us for blackmail, resources, and all kinds of advantages. Their corrupt system depended on it for survival.

Come to think of it, Putin is doing the same thing. And of course we seek to gain leverage all over the place too. Just our capitalistic less corrupt system allows us to do it in a different way as you alluded to.
 
I don't remember ever having that feeling in my gut when watching a press conference like the one I got watching Trump and JD Vance berate Zelinskyy.

That just made me feel nauseous. It was awful. Probably very, very few people have seen as much violence, loss, grief and heartache over the past few years as Pres. Zelinskyy...and those clowns are upset because he doesn't say "thank you" enough?

There is something very, very wrong here. I am ashamed of my country.
 
TarSpiel said:
I don't remember ever having that feeling in my gut when watching a press conference like the one I got watching Trump and JD Vance berate Zelinskyy.

That just made me feel nauseous. It was awful. Probably very, very few people have seen as much violence, loss, grief and heartache over the past few years as Pres. Zelinskyy...and those clowns are upset because he doesn't say "thank you" enough?

There is something very, very wrong here. I am ashamed of my country.
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If you know before ever coming to the US that trump is petty and childish, is buttering up putin, and doesn't support continuing the biden approach to the war, what is the single most important thing for you to accomplish for the survival of your country? Getting that mineral rights deal signed so it will mean a US presence and infrastructure in place that in essence provides protection from future russian invasions. In reality, it doesn't matter how many times trump and vance want him to say thank you. It doesn't matter how childish trump is. Do whatever you have to to get the US's presence in ukraine. Zel let emotion get the best of him. It doesn't matter if he was right and trump was wrong. None of that matters. Just get the deal signed.
 
Trump just "paused" all U.S. aid to Ukraine. We all knew that as a Putin puppet, Trump would eventually do this when he could.

But the current aid has already been approved by Congress.
 
Maybe Z will now stop listening to his Dem allies; get on the phone and apologize to Trump so the deal can get signed; and get the process back on track.

It’s the only path forward for Ukraine.
 
Ramrouser said:
Maybe Z will now stop listening to his Dem allies; get on the phone and apologize to Trump so the deal can get signed; and get the process back on track.

It’s the only path forward for Ukraine.
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Lololol do you realize how even more pathetic than usual you are making Trump look by saying that the only path forward for one of our democratic allies is for their leader to get on the phone and apologize because the POTUS had a temper tantrum that would embarrass even a toddler?

Good Lord, how is MAGA so soft.
 
Ramrouser said:
Maybe Z will now stop listening to his Dem allies; get on the phone and apologize to Trump so the deal can get signed; and get the process back on track.

It’s the only path forward for Ukraine.
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Right. Z is the problem. Where do you get this shit? Never mind. I know where you get it.

Would you sign a deal with Trump? Deals mean nothing to him. In four hours, he's going to destroy the US Canada Mexico trade agreement HE FUCKING NEGOTIATED AND SIGNED IN HIS FIRST TERM.

He pulled the US out of the WHO for no reason. He's been cancelling contracts left and right, usually for no reason. There are American organizations going bankrupt because Trump has decided to withhold funds for no reason (and with no legal authority).

What on Earth would make you think he would honor any part of that deal. Signing a contract with Trump is to give him a free option on your dime. I wouldn't sign a contract with that piece of shit ever.

And the "minerals deal" did nothing for Ukraine anyway. It was just a shakedown. This is the "I'm going to burn down your bar because you didn't pay my mafia tax" stage.
 
Yes, he should do that as soon as Trump apologizes to the world for being such a petulant child and asshole

Trump should also apologize to every American for knocking us off as the world leader for Democracy, a position we had held for nearly a century.

Zelensky is too smart to make any deal with Trump. It is obvious to anyone wirh any sense, that Trump wants to give as much of Ukraine as his buddy Put8n can claim right now. He is also going to cut off funding no matter what.

Trump's antics are nothing more than to feed the ignorant mouth breathing MAGAts.

As a true Republican, and not a clown cultist, we should NEVER side with Russia. Hell, we were worried about doing so even against Nazi Germany. MAGA is not Republican. It is a collection of the dumbest among us.
 
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ChileG said:
Apologize for what?
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For Z’s disrespectful conduct (interrupting the POTUS, eye rolling, calling JD a “bitch”, no thank you, and failure to wear a suit when specifically asked to do so). He also needs to apologize for listening to Murphy and taking his advice.
 
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