Russia - US | Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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CFordUNC said:
Where the Biden administration made a critical mistake, in my opinion, is putting so many restrictions on how Ukraine was able to use the weapons we provided to them.
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Maybe, but I don't really fault them for easing into the "going to war with a nuclear state" pond. Decades of American foreign policy were built on the premise that a war with Moscow could be species-threatening.
 
OGtruthhurts said:
i am beyond shocked that showman donald trump pulled out his fake tough guy persona on national tv vs a weakling.....just beyond shocked smh

your side lost...you can either man up and accept it or curl up and throw a temper tantrum every week when he does something to hurt your sensitive feelings. you are in the minority regardless
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I can't think of anything more laughably inconsistent with the fundamental principles of our country than the idea that the people who lose an election should not bother protesting or calling attention to the obviously stupid, misguided, dangerous, and illegal things the current administration is doing.
 
heelinhell said:
3 ) ????
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I think Calla thinks we won't have to depend on China as much for minerals if Trump can shake down Zelensky and Ukraine for those minerals. Personally, I'd rather not take Ukraine's minerals and find another source country that's not being bombarded by that asshole megalomaniac, Vlad Putin. Ukraine needs all the help it can get.
 
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CFordUNC said:
Where the Biden administration made a critical mistake, in my opinion, is putting so many restrictions on how Ukraine was able to use the weapons we provided to them. If we were going to provide weapons and aid, it should have been unconditional and they should have been able to prosecute the war how they saw fit. I think that Ukraine could have outright defeated Russia- not just stalemated, but actually dealt them a crippling, crushing defeat a la Afghanistan in the 80’s. IMO it will go down as one of our biggest foreign policy mistakes, second only to the Trump 2.0 administration actually surrendering both Ukraine *and* America’s global superpower status in one fell swoop.
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Biden got a lot right. The declassification of intelligence material at the beginning of the war was a masterstroke. It moved European public opinion to support Ukraine early in the conflict when it mattered.

In retrospect, it's easy to say that we should have given more weapons faster. But the counterfactual that is impossible to prove is what the Russian response would have been. He was trying to support Ukraine without prompting a tactical nuke escalation. I would argue that the most analagous historical moment to arming Ukraine to retake the Donbass is our march to the Yalu River in the Korean War. That didn't end well...
 
Callatoroy said:
Well just give me all those details of biden trying to broker peace and negotiate with putin.
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I would think that if Biden was trying to broker a peace deal and negotiate with Putin, it would include Russia withdrawing from the sovereign territory of Ukraine and making recompense for the damage it illegally wrought upon the Ukraine people...

Surely you agree
 
Enigma94 said:
I don't mind negotiating with Putin, but what Trump is doing isn't negotiation, it's capitulation.
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Well what are the details of that? I know you want to, and have to believe its capitulation. But since no details are out there for scrutiny kind of hard to say that isn't it?

 
Biden did nothing to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine other than stating "DON'T" - real effective.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.

If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.

The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
 
Callatoroy said:
Well what are the details of that? I know you want to, and have to believe its capitulation. But since no details are out there for scrutiny kind of hard to say that isn't it?

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You've heard everything Trump has said about this. I'm not going to regurgitate it for you if you are going to just act obtuse.
 
The only reason to support a continuation of this war is that it continues to grind down Russia, its military capabilities, and its economy.

I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.

I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
 
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