SCOTUS case: Trans rights for minors

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EhringhausSouth said:
So basically you are saying chemical castration of minors should be allowed?
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If the parents, child and the multiple doctors that would be involved in that decision agree, then yes ,not that it would be my business. Circumcision is freely allowed and it has almost no reason for being done
 
lawtig02 said:
Come on, man. Using terminology like that sounds a lot like "abortion is murder." These are difficult questions. The science is difficult and the ethics are even more difficult. Reasonable people can disagree. Let's give some grace to the people most affected by it, which are the kids, the parents and the doctors, but definitely not the state.
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Oh, I fell terrible for minors that have this done. The adults in their lives have failed them.
 
finesse said:
If the parents, child and the multiple doctors that would be involved in that decision agree, then yes ,not that it would be my business. Circumcision is freely allowed and it has almost no reason for being done
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Right to privacy. So maybe if people and their accountants decide that their bank accounts are no one's business, then they should be left alone.
 
EhringhausSouth said:
Right to privacy. So maybe if people and their accountants decide that their bank accounts are no one's business, then they should be left alone.
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I've worked on multiple cases where a fraudster's CPA was completely complicit in their money laundering/fraud/Ponzi scheme. I'm sure you would agree neither the fraudster nor the CPA should be immune from criminal liability under some "right to privacy" principle associated with bank accounts.

Now help me with the corollary here. What's the criminal activity the state has an interest in monitoring and preventing with respect to a teenager's health care?
 
WaynetheDrain said:
The “sweet spot” is keeping the decision solely in the hands of the children, the parents, and their doctor. Once a child is of age, the decision should be theirs and their doctor to make.

Why is it the right is so eager to go big government intervention when it comes to what we do with our bodies, but doesn’t want government interfering in things like education and basic healthcare?
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Sure, that's your opinion. Again, being a teenager is difficult and confusing. There's a lot going on in their bodies and minds. There's also a social contagion aspect of transgenderism that seems to be more prevalent. Doctors are great, but they aren't perfect.

I'll also add that at least two studies have shown that the odds of suicide actually increase after gender transition surgeries. That also points to the fact that there's something else going on that we don't fully understand in the situation, when we're are removing breasts and transforming genitals of kids.
 
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UNCatTech said:
I'll look up one of the articles I've read and post it. They changed my mind because I realized there was more to seatbelts than simply personal choice.
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In a society where we socialize health costs and give disability payments to people who can't work, it was never about personal choice regardless of whether the driver controls the vehicle or not.

If people want to sign a document waiving their right to medical treatment or supportive therapy in the event of a motorcycle crash, then they go can without a helmet all they want as far as I am concerned. But nobody should respect the freedumb claims as long as they are trying to insulate themselves from the consequences of their behavior. It's the same way that people who refuse a vaccine should be in turn refused medical treatment for the condition that the vaccine could have prevented.
 
ZenMode said:
Sure, that's your opinion. Again, being a teenager is difficult and confusing. There's a lot going on in their bodies and minds. There's also a social contagion aspect of transgenderism that seems to be more prevalent. Doctors are great, but they aren't perfect.

I'll also add that at least two studies have shown that the odds of suicide actually increase after gender transition surgeries. That also points to the fact that there's something else going on that we don't fully understand in the situation.
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Link those studies because I am calling bullshit.

No self-respecting person would write that first paragraph. You've mashed four of the silliest fucking cliches in the whole language into a screed against expertise. LOL. You're complaining about doctors in a post written at a 6th grade level.
 
EhringhausSouth said:
Right to privacy. So maybe if people and their accountants decide that their bank accounts are no one's business, then they should be left alone.
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This is quite possibly the stupidest post in the history of this message board.

1. BANK ACCOUNTS ARE LEFT ALONE. If the police want to check out what goes in and out of your account, they can't just ask the bank to see your account documents. They have to ask a judge to grant them a warrant. The judge balances the equities and evaluates the need for the warrant before approving or denying. So you already have privacy!!!!

2. If there is a doctor fraudulently inducing transition surgeries, the doctor will be investigated using the exact same tools as the police with bank accounts. If the doctor illegally harmed kids, then the doctor will be held to account.

Your post actually broadcasts the overall silliness of your position.
 
superrific said:
Link those studies because I am calling bullshit.

No self-respecting person would write that first paragraph. You've mashed four of the silliest fucking cliches in the whole language into a screed against expertise. LOL. You're complaining about doctors in a post written at a 6th grade level.
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Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.


Risk of Suicide and Self-Harm Following Gender-Affirmation Surgery - PMC

Introduction With the growing acceptance of transgender individuals, the number of gender affirmation surgeries has increased. Transgender individuals face elevated depression rates, leading to an increase in suicide ideation and attempts. This ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In patients with a history of gender-affirmation surgery, there was a 3.35 times greater risk of being deceased (4.9% vs. 1.5%, RR 95% CI 2.673-4.194, p < 0.0001). Patients with a history of gender-affirmation surgery had a 9.88 times higher risk of self-harm or suicide
 
ZenMode said:

Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.


Risk of Suicide and Self-Harm Following Gender-Affirmation Surgery - PMC

Introduction With the growing acceptance of transgender individuals, the number of gender affirmation surgeries has increased. Transgender individuals face elevated depression rates, leading to an increase in suicide ideation and attempts. This ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In patients with a history of gender-affirmation surgery, there was a 3.35 times greater risk of being deceased (4.9% vs. 1.5%, RR 95% CI 2.673-4.194, p < 0.0001). Patients with a history of gender-affirmation surgery had a 9.88 times higher risk of self-harm or suicide
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I'm sure you know this, but those studies are comparing suicidality among transgender individuals v. cisgender individuals. They're not comparing suicidality among transgender individuals who receive gender-affirming care v. those who do not.
 
ZenMode said:

Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.
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Thank you for again demonstrating your inability to read and/or comprehend scientific studies. Why do you continue to humiliate yourself by pretending to understand these things when it's so obvious that you have no experience or education that would allow you even to comprehend the basic contours of the issue?

I used to refer to randman as the Black Knight because of his refusal to concede even when he's had all his limbs cut off. That's not always true for you. Sometimes you consider other posts, think about them, and then alter your views. But sometimes, man, you're sitting there trying to bleed on us with three limbs off. Give it up.
 
lawtig02 said:
I'm sure you know this, but those studies are comparing suicidality among transgender individuals v. cisgender individuals. They're not comparing suicidality among transgender individuals who receive gender-affirming care v. those who do not.
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I do not think he knows that at all. You've had to read scientific papers in your litigation practice, I would imagine. ZenMode almost surely has no comparable experience.

In fairness, I can't see why a journal would ever think to publish a comparison of post-op suicidality in a subpopulation known to have elevated suicide risk to the general population. Talk about uselessness. Meta-analyses can be great, but they are also the source of a lot of bullshit and can be worse than useless.
 
lawtig02 said:
I'm sure you know this, but those studies are comparing suicidality among transgender individuals v. cisgender individuals. They're not comparing suicidality among transgender individuals who receive gender-affirming care v. those who do not.
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The basis for treatments and surgeries is to resolve the conflict between the physical body and the the brain of the person suffering from gender dysphoria, which is believed to be among the causes of elevated suicide risk. If hormone treatments and invasive, elective surgeries aren't really fixing the issue, as the continued elevated suicide rates seem to imply, why are we doing them?

Fairly easily reversible hormone treatments on children are one thing. Hormone treatments for children aren't unique to gender dysphoria.

It seems to me that we have gotten the cart before the horse on this. We need to have a better understanding of this before performing these surgeries on kids.

As I'm sure you know, Western European countries are even pausing hormone treatments on children while they try to better understand the situation.
 
lawtig02 said:
Come on, man. Using terminology like that sounds a lot like "abortion is murder." These are difficult questions. The science is difficult and the ethics are even more difficult. Reasonable people can disagree. Let's give some grace to the people most affected by it, which are the kids, the parents and the doctors, but definitely not the state.
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The science is really difficult for people with no background in biology.
 
ZenMode said:
The basis for treatments and surgeries is to resolve the conflict between the physical body and the the brain of the person suffering from gender dysphoria, which is believed to be among the causes of elevated suicide risk. If hormone treatments and invasive, elective surgeries aren't really fixing the issue, as the continued elevated suicide rates seem to imply, why are we doing them?

Fairly easily reversible hormone treatments on children are one thing. Hormone treatments for children aren't unique to gender dysphoria.

It seems to me that we have gotten the cart before the horse on this. We need to have a better understanding of this before performing these surgeries on kids.

As I'm sure you know, Western European countries are even pausing hormone treatments on children while they try to better understand the situation.
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Why do we give chemotherapy to cancer patients? Those with cancer still die at a higher rate than those without it.

Or, to use a board-relevant example, why do we prescribe statins for those with high cholesterol? Those with high cholesterol still die at a higher rate than those without it.
 
I agree with the above poster. As a high school teacher, 10 years ago, no transgenders, all of a sudden, we got a handful. It is a contagion of some sort.
 
ZenMode said:
The basis for treatments and surgeries is to resolve the conflict between the physical body and the the brain of the person suffering from gender dysphoria, which is believed to be among the causes of elevated suicide risk. If hormone treatments and invasive, elective surgeries aren't really fixing the issue, as the continued elevated suicide rates seem to imply, why are we doing them?

Fairly easily reversible hormone treatments on children are one thing. Hormone treatments for children aren't unique to gender dysphoria.

It seems to me that we have gotten the cart before the horse on this. We need to have a better understanding of this before performing these surgeries on kids.

As I'm sure you know, Western European countries are even pausing hormone treatments on children while they try to better understand the situation.
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1. Western European countries are not in fact pausing hormone treatments. That's a lie.
2. Even if they were, since when do you give a fuck about what Western European countries do? When have you ever changed a position of yours after being shown that France does something different?

3. The suicide risk decreases after the treatments. If the risk is 20x cis before, and 12x cis after, what do you think has happened? In a related question, did you pass Algebra I?
 
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