Should Harris have continued with her more Populist messaging?

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Authoritarian populism is waaaay easier to sell that economic populism (or any other kind).
Agreed, largely due to the points mentioned earlier about our current campaign finance system. Billionaires and corporate elite will always tend towards right wing authoritarianism before they will even glance at someone who calls themselves a socialist.

That being said, economic populism is the best way for the Dems to claw back ground going forward IMO. I don’t really see another option.
 
I guess the biggest hurdle in my eyes is how do you win back an uneducated and very religious group of disaffected white men that are angry at trans people playing sports? What do you tell them that they won't call communism?

I don't even know where to begin with that.
 
Agreed, largely due to the points mentioned earlier about our current campaign finance system. Billionaires and corporate elite will always tend towards right wing authoritarianism before they will even glance at someone who calls themselves a socialist.

That being said, economic populism is the best way for the Dems to claw back ground going forward IMO. I don’t really see another option.
I think it depends on what the economic populist message actually is. Unions are no longer popular with young, working-class voters who have been convinced they are against the interests of the working class, and their influence is much reduced. Working-class people have been largely convinced that whatever is bad for their boss is bad for them. Social safety net messaging doesn't work, because working-class people see that stuff as being for people in a class beneath them, not for them. Harris tried things targeted at the middle class like first-time home-buyer credits, but it didn't work. Price controls are branded as communist messaging. What is there to hit?
 
Osborn outperformed the Democrat running in the other Senate race by ten points.

Like usual, you miss the point that I try to make in regards to class and labor.

You too often conflate people seeing candidates as “too liberal” with them being too far left. Hillary and Kamala were both seen as too liberal. Was this because of their policy positions? Not a chance. It’s all optics. Like Walz said, one person’s neighborliness is another person’s socialism. Americans don’t know what it means to be far left or far right, by and large.

I’ve never said anything about labor backed candidates winning just because they’re labor backed. My points are always about messaging and aesthetics. Policy does a good job of reinforcing those. But if the messaging and aesthetics are off, the policy doesn’t really matter.

Sherrod Brown is close to this type of candidate, though still a bit too moderate for my liking. His ability to last in Ohio up to this point was impressive. Same for Tester. Again, I think a big part of their appeal was aesthetics. The Democratic brand was too trashed in Ohio and Montana for them to get over the hump again.
Sherrod Brown was elected in two extremely favorable election cycles for Dems, and in 2012 the Dems were running against Mitt Romney, one of the men most responsible for corporate bankruptcies that cost hundreds of thousands of Ohioans their jobs. Jon Tester, like Joe Manchin, runs against the Democrats more than he runs with them. I'm glad they survived, but I really didn't expect them to win again. They were lucky. Like Claire McCaskill in 2012. And maybe Fetterman too.

By aesthetics, what do you mean exactly? When I look at Tester's aesthetics, I see a big white guy in a cowboy hat. Is that what we need? Sherrod Brown is also a tall white man.

There was that blip in 2020 in Georgia, but otherwise, the Confederacy has completely reestablished itself. I don't hold out much hope for Ossoff or Warnock, unless the 2026 cycle is unusually favorable.

I get that you're a materialist in politics, but I can't look of a map of America in 1861 and 2024 and come to that conclusion. It is always about race, except in panics. The great reordering of American politics after the 1960s was about the South, and about race. We might be on the verge of some similar reordering. Again, it will be about race and about the south. The problem is that the South keeps growing.

I don't have any ideas how to fix it, other than don't run female candidates for president. Our big miscalculation has been that as the old segregationists died off, the country would become less racist. That looked solid until Obama. But one of the things that happened was conservatives stopped sending their kids to public school. They are breeding more racists. Education is what combats racism, but they are withdrawing from education.
 
Trump’s populist economic messaging this cycle includied praising Elon for firing workers who threatened to strike and saying tariffs are how he’d bring down grocery prices.

He did say there would be no tax on tips and overtime, so we’ll see how that goes.
 
I think it depends on what the economic populist message actually is. Unions are no longer popular with young, working-class voters who have been convinced they are against the interests of the working class, and their influence is much reduced. Working-class people have been largely convinced that whatever is bad for their boss is bad for them. Social safety net messaging doesn't work, because working-class people see that stuff as being for people in a class beneath them, not for them. Harris tried things targeted at the middle class like first-time home-buyer credits, but it didn't work. Price controls are branded as communist messaging. What is there to hit?
I disagree with your point about young people and unions. To the extent that there is negative propaganda floating around in young people’s heads about unions, I think it’s been through cultural osmosis.

We haven’t had a sustained effort, with the Democratic Party operating as part of the engine, to expand and engage the labor movement. Biden did some good stuff here, but just wasn’t enough of an effective messenger to break through. Harris largely ignored the manufacturing and union policies of the Biden admin while campaigning, which I think was a big mistake.

In terms of social safety net, I also strong disagree with that. There are tons of working poor who benefit from social safety programs and know their value. Blue collar men who make more money than the working poor are more so who you’re talking about, I think. You have to present the message in terms of universality. Would a working man see Medicare for All as something below him? Or would he see it as an opportunity to have decreased out of pocket costs? I’d say the latter.
 
Trump is your evidence that radicalism wins.
1. Trump isn't actually radical in his messaging to the working class. Precisely the opposite. He's radical in the sense that he doesn't even try to pretend that he's good at running the country. He's uninterested in anything but his own power. That's radical. But his messaging is just the same old bullshit except in more ignorant form.

2. Anyway, this country has always had a long tradition of radical reactionaries (if we can accept what might in other contexts be an oxymoron). Radical change agents don't do as well. Because ultimately white Americans are scared of people different than they are. Racism is rarely a losing strategy in American politics. It loses in times of crisis, like 08 and 20, and then it comes back with a vengeance, like in 2010 and now in 2024.
 
In terms of social safety net, I also strong disagree with that. There are tons of working poor who benefit from social safety programs and know their value. Blue collar men who make more money than the working poor are more so who you’re talking about, I think. You have to present the message in terms of universality. Would a working man see Medicare for All as something below him? Or would he see it as an opportunity to have decreased out of pocket costs? I’d say the latter.
You should be right about that last sentence, but I am skeptical of it in practice. Almost half of voters in exit polls said Kamala was too liberal. Medicare 4 all is seen as socialism, and they think socialism helps people who don't work and hurts people who do work. I am pretty confident that Medicare 4 all would be well underwater in polling among working-class men.
 
"superrific said: I have no issue with left-wing social policies. I just want to win. That's all. If you can point me to any evidence at all that radicalism is the way to do that, I'm all ears." (pardon my ignorance of this quote function...)

There is no current of politics in America today that is more radical than MAGA, and it just won a majority of the national vote and control of all 3 branches of government.

Yesterday's exit polls consistently showed throughout the swing states won by Trump that Trump was deemed more extremist/radical than Harris.

There's your proof: A compelling theory of politics - even if considered radical - will beat pabulum when the mood is right. Dems have missed the mood for 3 cycles in a row.
 
Yesterday's exit polls consistently showed throughout the swing states won by Trump that Trump was deemed more extremist/radical than Harris.
Are you sure that's right? That is directly the opposite of what I've seen.
 
Sherrod Brown was elected in two extremely favorable election cycles for Dems, and in 2012 the Dems were running against Mitt Romney, one of the men most responsible for corporate bankruptcies that cost hundreds of thousands of Ohioans their jobs. Jon Tester, like Joe Manchin, runs against the Democrats more than he runs with them. I'm glad they survived, but I really didn't expect them to win again. They were lucky. Like Claire McCaskill in 2012. And maybe Fetterman too.

By aesthetics, what do you mean exactly? When I look at Tester's aesthetics, I see a big white guy in a cowboy hat. Is that what we need? Sherrod Brown is also a tall white man.

There was that blip in 2020 in Georgia, but otherwise, the Confederacy has completely reestablished itself. I don't hold out much hope for Ossoff or Warnock, unless the 2026 cycle is unusually favorable.

I get that you're a materialist in politics, but I can't look of a map of America in 1861 and 2024 and come to that conclusion. It is always about race, except in panics. The great reordering of American politics after the 1960s was about the South, and about race. We might be on the verge of some similar reordering. Again, it will be about race and about the south. The problem is that the South keeps growing.

I don't have any ideas how to fix it, other than don't run female candidates for president. Our big miscalculation has been that as the old segregationists died off, the country would become less racist. That looked solid until Obama. But one of the things that happened was conservatives stopped sending their kids to public school. They are breeding more racists. Education is what combats racism, but they are withdrawing from education.
yes, that point about aesthetics is what I mean. Tester’s working class aesthetic just wasn’t enough to carry him over the hump when the party and the top of the ticket didn’t have the same aesthetic.

This aesthetic can be lessened or improved upon by what policies a candidate does or doesn’t support, but the aesthetic is what matters most.
 
You should be right about that last sentence, but I am skeptical of it in practice. Almost half of voters in exit polls said Kamala was too liberal. Medicare 4 all is seen as socialism, and they think socialism helps people who don't work and hurts people who do work. I am pretty confident that Medicare 4 all would be well underwater in polling among working-class men.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree until we get some real world evidence. I might be high on my own supply, but I feel like I could sell Medicare for All to a working white guy pretty easily.

It lowers their costs. It lowers their families costs. If they’re an employer, they no longer have to pay for employee insurance. Socialism allegations are pretty easily deflected IMO. Republicans call everything socialism.
 
I still don't know what Trump has offered as a populist message that will bring inflation down. Tariffs certainly won't do it, it'll make it worse, so what is his solution to fix inflation? Or is it just going to be the same as it is now and he claims its down?
I think the answer is that he doesn’t give a shit about it. He’s won. What does he care anymore? His objectives are met. His legal troubles are over. He can exact his revenge, make some more money, and then (hopefully) peace out. He doesn’t care about the GOP and where it goes when he’s gone, either. I imagine his ego would appreciate it falling on its face when he’s no longer “the head of the party.” Then again, he’s probably head of the party until he’s dead.
 
1. Trump isn't actually radical in his messaging to the working class. Precisely the opposite. He's radical in the sense that he doesn't even try to pretend that he's good at running the country. He's uninterested in anything but his own power. That's radical. But his messaging is just the same old bullshit except in more ignorant form.

2. Anyway, this country has always had a long tradition of radical reactionaries (if we can accept what might in other contexts be an oxymoron). Radical change agents don't do as well. Because ultimately white Americans are scared of people different than they are. Racism is rarely a losing strategy in American politics. It loses in times of crisis, like 08 and 20, and then it comes back with a vengeance, like in 2010 and now in 2024.
Trump is radical in his messaging dude. His whole schtick is smashing through the crumbling façade of liberalism and delivering for the people over the cultural elite who think they know better than the average man. This is a decidedly radical message and a ton of people bought into it. It’s all about branding. Americans don’t care about radicalism if they feel like you’re being radical on their behalf.
 
"superrific said: I have no issue with left-wing social policies. I just want to win. That's all. If you can point me to any evidence at all that radicalism is the way to do that, I'm all ears." (pardon my ignorance of this quote function...)

There is no current of politics in America today that is more radical than MAGA, and it just won a majority of the national vote and control of all 3 branches of government.

Yesterday's exit polls consistently showed throughout the swing states won by Trump that Trump was deemed more extremist/radical than Harris.

There's your proof: A compelling theory of politics - even if considered radical - will beat pabulum when the mood is right. Dems have missed the mood for 3 cycles in a row.
Oh how I've missed you. Agree 100% and, pabulum is just perfect.
 
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree until we get some real world evidence. I might be high on my own supply, but I feel like I could sell Medicare for All to a working white guy pretty easily.

It lowers their costs. It lowers their families costs. If they’re an employer, they no longer have to pay for employee insurance. Socialism allegations are pretty easily deflected IMO. Republicans call everything socialism.
I honestly think you're high on your own supply. Not that you are overrating your own persuasion abilities. You are underrating the toxicity of big government social programs among the current conservative electorate.

Let Republicans repeal Obamacare and break the health care markets. Let people experience going back into newly unfettered markets with no guarantees for preexisting conditions. THEN maybe people will be ready to see the light.
 
I disagree with your point about young people and unions. To the extent that there is negative propaganda floating around in young people’s heads about unions, I think it’s been through cultural osmosis.

We haven’t had a sustained effort, with the Democratic Party operating as part of the engine, to expand and engage the labor movement. Biden did some good stuff here, but just wasn’t enough of an effective messenger to break through. Harris largely ignored the manufacturing and union policies of the Biden admin while campaigning, which I think was a big mistake.

In terms of social safety net, I also strong disagree with that. There are tons of working poor who benefit from social safety programs and know their value. Blue collar men who make more money than the working poor are more so who you’re talking about, I think. You have to present the message in terms of universality. Would a working man see Medicare for All as something below him? Or would he see it as an opportunity to have decreased out of pocket costs? I’d say the latter.
1. Kamala fought hard for union endorsements. She was in the Rust Belt states talking industrial policy. She ran on Biden's union policies. And look, it's not as if the unions don't know where she stood. The union members don't fucking care because immigrants are invading.

2. Again, I think you should read more about Obamacare. Obamacare, after all, was universal. That was literally its whole point. And the working class folks turned out against it in 2010, 2014, and 2016. Remember, they came a single vote short of repealing Obamacare, and the only reason it was saved was that McCain was irritated that his committee had been sidelined.

You might be too young to remember the dystopia of pre-existing conditions. Getting rid of that hell should have been the easiest thing in the world -- even easier than decreasing out of pocket costs. Keeping that hell away should have been easy.

3. Again, the problem is that our political system does not give us any options. We get two and we don't get to choose a la carte. And that's why, for the past decade, Dems running on popular policy platforms do not win. Abortion did well in a midterm but it utterly bombed this year -- even though most Americans are pro-choice. On issue after issue, progressives point out, "look Americans love this" and then the GOP wins by running against all of those things. Just as they did with Obamacare.

Because at the end of the day, people vote for what interests them the most. This election could not be clearer as to what that is. Again, Trump's entire campaign, especially the last month, was racism and misogyny reduced to their very essence. I'm not sure how he could have run a more hate-filled campaign. And that's what people respond to, apparently.

In the end, "socialism" has always meant "racial equality" to the right. Remember that they used to call MLK a communist. So it becomes ingrained that socialism has to be bad, which is why no American politician outside of Vermont wins with socialism as the message. The word is verboten; the ideas are usually dangerous. When you describe policies to people, without labels attached, they like them. But then they hear the GOP politicians pounding the s-word and they get scared.

When Trump rails against Radical Left Socialists, what his voters hear is him standing up to uppity minorities and women. This is also the abortion debate. Something like 98% of federal judges who are pro-life are also the ones who try to scale back anti-discrimination laws as much as possible. That's not a coincidence, is it? Abortion was part of the Southern Strategy, after all.
 
"superrific said: I have no issue with left-wing social policies. I just want to win. That's all. If you can point me to any evidence at all that radicalism is the way to do that, I'm all ears." (pardon my ignorance of this quote function...)

There is no current of politics in America today that is more radical than MAGA, and it just won a majority of the national vote and control of all 3 branches of government.

Yesterday's exit polls consistently showed throughout the swing states won by Trump that Trump was deemed more extremist/radical than Harris.

There's your proof: A compelling theory of politics - even if considered radical - will beat pabulum when the mood is right. Dems have missed the mood for 3 cycles in a row.
Right-wing radicalism is not the same as left-wing radicalism. Plus Trump isn't radical in a political sense. Just in his willingness to throw all progress out the window in service of his ego. And to the extent he is radical, it's all about race hatred. I mean, that's literally all he talked about the last month.

Trump has no compelling theory of politics. He has "black people bad, women are too uppity." If you have an answer to that, I'd love to hear it.
 
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