The sad case of Imane Khelif

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I love it when people post articles off google and DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO READ THE ABSTRACT. From the busy bee's third link above (I've edited slightly for readability):

Time-To-Exhaustion increased significantly by 21.17 s (8.5%) in the testosterone group compared with the placebo group (mean difference 15.5 s; P=0.045). Wingate average power was not significantly different between the groups (P=0.084). There were no significant changes in muscle strength as measured by Squat Jump, Counter Movement Jump, and knee extension peak torque.

So the testosterone gave the girls a bit more stamina (a modest gain of less than 10%) and no additional strength.
 

Leaked Medical Report Pours Gasoline On Imane Khelif Boxing Controversy​


Just days after World Boxing declared that female boxers must complete a mandatory gender test in order to compete, directly challenging controversial Olympic gold medalist Imane Khelif's status in the amateur boxing arena, a new bombshell report has now shed light on the Algerian boxers true gender.

In an article published yesterday (June 1) by Alan Abrahamson of 3 Wire Sports, the leaked medical records from Khelif's tests carried out in 2022 and 2023 ahead of the Paris Olympics have now been made public.

"Unless someone manipulates the evidence, the result is going to be crystal clear, déjà vu all over again, because in chromosome tests given amid the International Boxing Association’s 2022 and 2023 world championships, the boxer’s DNA showed XY markers with “male” karyotypes," Abrahamson wrote.

Abrahamson would go on to note that the International Olympic Committee (IOC) knew this, but still allowed Khelif to compete. The report, which includes screenshots of the lab test results, show the tests were carried out by Dr Lal PathLabs at Center of Reproductive Diagnostics at Dharamshila Hospital And Research Centre in Delhi, India. The lab is fully accredited and certified by American and Swiss organizations.

www.si.com

Leaked Medical Report Pours Gasoline On Imane Khelif Boxing Controversy

Just days after World Boxing declared that female boxers must complete a mandatory gender test in order to compete, directly challenging controversial Olympic g
www.si.com www.si.com
 
If this report ends up being true, which I suspect it will be, maybe we can change the title to "The sad case of a male whipping up on unsuspecting females in the Olympics"?
 
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ZenMode said:
If this report ends up being true, which I suspect it will be, maybe we can change the title to "The sad case of a male whipping up on unsuspecting females in the Olympics"?
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So you consider someone a male solely based on a chromosome test (unconfirmed at that) and find it completely irrelevant that the “male” has a vagina and was raised as a female her whole life?
 
Calheel said:
So you consider someone a male solely based on a chromosome test (unconfirmed at that) and find it completely irrelevant that the “male” has a vagina and was raised as a female her whole life?
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No. It's the high levels of testosterone and the chromosomes. Biologically speaking, and as it relates to athletics, you can't get much more male than that.
 
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ZenMode said:
No. It's the high levels of testosterone and the chromosomes. Biologically speaking, and as it relates to athletics, you can't get much more male than that.
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I don't know. Having a vagina seems like a pretty non-male thing, don't you think? Whenever I was in the showers at the gym, I didn't see a single vagina in the lineup (not that I was carefully examining or anything, but that would kinda stand out).
 
Calheel said:
I don't know. Having a vagina seems like a pretty non-male thing, don't you think? Whenever I was in the showers at the gym, I didn't see a single vagina in the lineup (not that I was carefully examining or anything, but that would kinda stand out).
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Your genitals aren't really relevant in boxing or any athletics.
 
ZenMode said:
Your genitals aren't really relevant in boxing or any athletics.
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They are pretty darn important in whether you are a man or a woman.

Calling someone with a vagina a "male" -- even when she has a vagina and has always identified as a female -- is certainly a choice.

You should accept the fact that gender is not always binary -- not always just male or female. There is a lot of literature on intersex. Perhaps you should open your mind a little bit.
 
Calheel said:
They are pretty darn important in whether you are a man or a woman.

Calling someone with a vagina a "male" -- even when she has a vagina and has always identified as a female -- is certainly a choice.

You should accept the fact that gender is not always binary -- not always just male or female. There is a lot of literature on intersex. Perhaps you should open your mind a little bit.
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Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
 
ZenMode said:
Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
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That’s one helluva transphobic post.
 
ZenMode said:
Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
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If you are raised as a female your whole life, if you have a vagina, if you believe you are female, are you not a female? This is a fundamentally different issue than a transgender person.

Think about what you are saying. You want every single female to take a chromosome test to prove their femaleness before they compete in female sports? Why? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to pay for these tests? Who is going to pay for the counseling when females find out they are "males" according to Zen?
 
Calheel said:
If you are raised as a female your whole life, if you have a vagina, if you believe you are female, are you not a female? This is a fundamentally different issue than a transgender person.

Think about what you are saying. You want every single female to take a chromosome test to prove their femaleness before they compete in female sports? Why? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to pay for these tests? Who is going to pay for the counseling when females find out they are "males" according to Zen?
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I think there are a people who are biologically male at birth, live as a male for some portion of their lives and then decide to live as a female. Those are the people, because of their testosterone levels, who have a distinct advantage in female athletics. I support rules/laws to prevent those people from playing in female sports because it is unfair to biological females with testosterone levels in the normal range for females.

Is any law/rule going to be perfect? No. Will there be cases where there is some ambiguity? Yes and those exceptions can be handled as exceptions.
 
ChileG said:
Like Imane’s case, for example.
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Imane's situation may have been ambiguous. The most recent report of XY/male karyotypes and elevated testosterone levels, if true, is enough to say she can't compete as a female, IMO.
 
Does she have to use the men’s bathroom, too? Or is she allowed to take her vagina into the women’s room?
 
ZenMode said:
I think there are a people who are biologically male at birth, live as a male for some portion of their lives and then decide to live as a female. Those are the people, because of their testosterone levels, who have a distinct advantage in female athletics. I support rules/laws to prevent those people from playing in female sports because it is unfair to biological females with testosterone levels in the normal range for females.

Is any law/rule going to be perfect? No. Will there be cases where there is some ambiguity? Yes and those exceptions can be handled as exceptions.
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But that is not her.

She never lived as a male. She has always lived as a female since birth.

So you are describing a situation that does not apply to her. Again, her case has nothing to do with transgenders. She is not transgender. She was assigned female at birth and has always been a female.
 
ZenMode said:
Imane's situation may have been ambiguous. The most recent report of XY/male karyotypes and elevated testosterone levels, if true, is enough to say she can't compete as a female, IMO.
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Then perhaps you can at least allow that it is still a sad case. This poor woman did nothing wrong but compete. There is no reason for her to believe she is anything but a woman. And now she has a large part of the world saying truly awful things about her, a lot of which isn’t true.
Your suggestion that the title of the thread to be changed to “man beats up women” is an example, and part of the reason why many of us look at the situation with sympathy.
 
ChileG said:
Then perhaps you can at least allow that it is still a sad case. This poor woman did nothing wrong but compete. There is no reason for her to believe she is anything but a woman. And now she has a large part of the world saying truly awful things about her, a lot of which isn’t true.
Your suggestion that the title of the thread to be changed to “man beats up women” is an example, and part of the reason why many of us look at the situation with sympathy.
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Yes, it is sad and unfortunate when biology and genetics aren't in sync. I'm going to assume she has a vagina, which is likely the reason she was labeled a female at birth. The rest of her physical appearance (breasts, facial bone structure, etc) certainly appear to be male, along with presumably chromosomes and testosterone levels. It sucks, but this is where empathy, IMO, is a weakness and leads people to do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is allowing a male, in the ways being a male matter athletically, to beat up on females.

Surely a vagina doesn't supercede all other sexual characteristics.
 
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