The sad case of Imane Khelif

[NYCBlueBlood]

Yes. I have certainly seen those five star recruits. I've also seen regular dudes who are 6 ft and about 170 like this trans girl in the video. None of those are playing with girls in high school and there's a reason for that.

What is this "reason" that it's ok for somebody like Zion to play with high school boys, but unthinkable for this girl to play with normal high school girls?

 

[altoheel]

My position is that boxing should not be a sport. If we only had boxing for men, that would be an improvement over boxing for everyone.

My positions on gender equality are well known on this board, and nobody can reasonably question my commitment to gender equality. I also happen to think that the avoidance of brain injuries should take precedence over some abstract sense of perfect gender equality in which women are encouraged to beat each other up because men do. I am also a pragmatist by nature, which means that I tend to gravitate away from extreme positions that would inspire lots of intense opposition out of proportion to the importance of the issue. Suggesting that men be prevented from boxing professionally would go over about as well as defund the police.

"Agency" isn't an issue here. The entire premise of the conversation is that people sometimes have to be prevented from acting in a self-destructive way.

I don't disagree that there's instances where people should be prevented from acting in ways that will cause themselves or others harm and of course you're not some cigar chomping good ol' boy looking down on the womenfolk, but in this particular instance, the stance you are taking is in favor of banning something for women and not for men. Getting to that destination via pragmatism rather than sexism is better, I guess, but the end result is still the same.

I feel like this is getting close to a derailment so I am going to tap out, as it were.

 

[superrific]

I don't disagree that there's instances where people should be prevented from acting in ways that will cause themselves or others harm and of course you're not some cigar chomping good ol' boy looking down on the womenfolk, but in this particular instance, the stance you are taking is in favor of banning something for women and not for men. Getting to that destination via pragmatism rather than sexism is better, I guess, but the end result is still the same.

I feel like this is getting close to a derailment so I am going to tap out, as it were.

It is derailment and we are arguing over something that started as a half-serious joke. The bigger truth, on which we can both agree, is that we have much bigger fish to fry in this country and in the world than boxing regulation.

To be clear, I've never given any thought to banning women's boxing. My point, again meant humorously, is that if the anti-trans folks manage to take out women's boxing as specially dangerous, I wouldn't mourn its loss.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

What is this "reason" that it's ok for somebody like Zion to play with high school boys, but unthinkable for this girl to play with normal high school girls?

I think they have found that boys playing with girls is not fair or safe.

 

[Lando]

Dude do you know how many high school sporting events are played every year? Hundreds of thousands. Forfeits for injuries and other reasons happen. One game forfeited due to a unique circumstance is not some harbinger of the great danger that trans athletes pose to female high school students.

Here are several other stories about high school teams forfeiting games and even seasons due to injuries. Wonder if trans athletes are to blame? And of course most high-school sporting event forfeits likely don't make the news at all.

Vinton forfeits high school football game due to injuries

This week the Vinton Lions were supposed to be on the road to play the (8-0) Welsh Greyhounds, but that all changed after the team sustained multiple injuries this past week against Grand Lake. Due to losing 3 more players to concussions this past Friday, the Lions have now decided to forfeit...

www.kplctv.com

High school football team abruptly forfeits remainder of season

One high school football team forfeits the remainder of the season.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

New Lincoln high school forfeits game because of injuries

Injuries have forced a new Nebraska high school to forfeit its upcoming football game.

www.wowt.com

Big Foot forfeits homecoming game against New Glarus due to player injuries

Big Foot High School in Walworth forfeited its varsity homecoming game on Sept. 29 against New Glarus due to low numbers in the program and recent injuries.

www.tmj4.com

Falcon almost upset Fremont after injured-caused forfeit to El Camino

The Falcons led Fremont for most of the game on their home field Oct. 20, but fell 42-36, giving them an 0-5 record in the Peninsula Lake League. In many ways, it was a moral victory for the team considering they had forfeited a game to El Camino the week before. “We played really well...

saratogafalcon.org

Amityville football forced to forfeit game against East Islip due to injuries

"We have quite a few injuries and need to get our guys healthy," Amityville coach Jason Epps said.

www.newsday.com

If playing against a trans athlete is too dangerous, how can high school football be allowed to exist?

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

I think they have found that boys playing with girls is not fair or safe.

I think they have found that boys playing with girls is not fair or safe.

Take a look at Alabama's incoming freshmen football class. You think it's fair or safe for boys to have been playing football against them last season?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Take a look at Alabama's incoming freshmen football class. You think it's fair or safe for boys to have been playing football against them last season?

We as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

 

[lawtig02]

Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

 

[Ddseddse]

Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

Why is safety in there? We have separate mens's and women's 100m dashes, and that's clearly not for "safety".

If fact "fairness" provides 100% of the explanatory power for the separation of men's and women's sports, adding in safety is wholey unnecessary.

But then again, if you didn't add it in, you wouldn't have it as a handy hook to hang your bigotry off of.

 

[akillesheel]

Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

okay - so, if you are comfortable with outlier men and boys participating in men's and boys' sports despite the safety and fairness issues they present, then why can the same not be true of outlier girls and women? there are probably only about as many trans girls and women who want to get into sports as there are Zions.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

I'm confused. I thought you were the one who wanted to change the rules to segment women based on testosterone level. I'd like to remind you, we have this arbitrarily decided method (which you seem to feel is the sacrosanct) to determine the balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with. Are you telling me it's not actually sacrosanct.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

okay - so, if you are comfortable with outlier men and boys participating in men's and boys' sports despite the safety and fairness issues they present, then why can the same not be true of outlier girls and women? there are probably only about as many trans girls and women who want to get into sports as there are Zions.

Because while mentally they may be girls or women, physically they are not girls or women, even as outliers.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I'm confused. I thought you were the one who wanted to change the rules to segment women based on testosterone level. I'd like to remind you, we have this arbitrarily decided method (which you seem to feel is the sacrosanct) to determine the balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with. Are you telling me it's not actually sacrosanct.

What method are you referring to?

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

What method are you referring to?

gtyellowjacket said:


Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

gtyellowjacket said:


Are we as a society have elected to arbitrarily segment based on men's and women's sports. It could have been by weight or height or hair color or nose length, but right now we have decided its men and women because that seems to give us a balance of safety and fairness we are comfortable with.

If you're referring to the segmentation of men's versus women being sacrosanct, yeah, pretty much.

Once again, I support other sexed women competing in women's events at the high school level as long as safety does not become an issue to provide them socialization and other benefits that sports provide. I don't think championships or state records should apply.

I think as the ages increase and the levels get higher, the fairness and safety for the vast majority of women begin to outweigh the benefits for the few other sexed women.

 

[akillesheel]

Because while mentally they may be girls or women, physically they are not girls or women, even as outliers.

your rhetoric is creeping out of what we have been charitably interpreting as genuine desire to treat a hot-button issue with nuance and into garden-variety trans exclusionary nonsense. trans girls are girls and trans women are women, in ways that reach well beyond just "mentally." I also recommend you stop using the terminology of "other sexed" women if you want to be taken seriously on this topic going forward.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

your rhetoric is creeping out of what we have been charitably interpreting as genuine desire to treat a hot-button issue with nuance and into garden-variety trans exclusionary nonsense. trans girls are girls and trans women are women, in ways that reach well beyond just "mentally." I also recommend you stop using the terminology of "other sexed" women if you want to be taken seriously on this topic going forward.

Are you hanging up on semantics now?

I'm using other sexed to include trans women and trans girls but also women like the boxers in question who have a y-Chromosome but female genitalia. Stop trying to come up with a silly argument and focus On the best policy for women's sports.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

What method are you referring to?

Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif is female. Based on your logic, she should play sports as a female. We do not segment sports based on "weight or height or hair color or nose length," nor do we do it based on testosterone levels. Your logic is clear as day. Just as Ty Haywood, the 6'5, 285 lbs offensive tackle for Alabama next year. He is a boy and should therefore play with boys. Imane is a girl and should therefore play with girls. This is your logic, not mine.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif is female. Based on your logic, she should play sports as a female. We do not segment sports based on "weight or height or hair color or nose length," nor do we do it based on testosterone levels. Your logic is clear as day. Just as Ty Haywood, the 6'5, 285 lbs offensive tackle for Alabama next year. He is a boy and should therefore play with boys. Imane is a girl and should therefore play with girls. This is your logic, not mine.

I think its debatable she is female based on criteria used for female sports. And some governing bodies agree with me. Ms Khelif would not have been allowed to compete in the most recent Olympics if her chosen sport have been track and field or swimming. I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you imply.

 

[rodoheel]

I think its debatable she is female based on criteria used for female sports. And some governing bodies agree with me. Ms Khelif would not have been allowed to compete in the most recent Olympics if her chosen sport have been track and field or swimming. I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you imply.

There is one governing body that agrees with you, and it's controlled by Russia and won't say exactly what it determined.