The sad case of Imane Khelif

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Calheel said:
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This is a subject I've been paying close attention since the Dutee Chand case first became high-profile in 2014. You will note that the article, which I doubt you even read, is not biased in favor of any one position. It fairly discusses arguments on both sides of the testosterone debate and spends a good amount of time talking about the Chand case.

So, for essentially a decade I've had a nuanced understanding about testosterone testing and why it doesn't make sense as a solution to androgynous women and the alleged genetic advantages they have. You, on the other hand, appear to have read basically no scientific literature and then precede to tsk, tsk the rest of the board for being anti-science.

Honestly, you would benefit from taking some time to read the relevant literature and to educate yourself on the science before falsely moralizing to others on the board.
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Perhaps you should have spent the last decade following the scientific literature a little more closely. Here are several more recent articles that describe the advantages that testosterone provides:

Female hyperandrogenism and elite sport - PMC

Emerging evidence indicates that testosterone, which can increase muscle mass and strength, stimulates erythropoiesis, promotes competitive behaviour, and enhances the physical performance of women. Indeed, the levels of testosterone within the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance - PMC

Elite athletic competitions have separate male and female events due to men’s physical advantages in strength, speed, and endurance so that a protected female category with objective entry criteria is required. Prior to puberty, there is no sex ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Once again, "I definitely think testosterone is one of the factors that should come into play. It does give competitors a massive advantage over those that get much less through puberty."
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Correct and Ms Khelif may not fall under the other sexed criteria. We only have the claim of a biased boxing governing body who has not produced any test results they say they have.

But some women certainly do and we should be discussing policies on whether they should be allowed to compete.
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No.

"We" shouldn't.

The governing bodies are all over this and have been from the start. WTF do you think that "we" have to add to this conversation?

How about "we" STFU and let the governing bodies which are 1) existentially vested in the outcome, 2) have expertise at their disposal that none of us have, 3) are in possession of the specific facts about individual cases that we are blind to... how about "we" let them get on with their business and "we" stop butting our ignorant noses in where they don't belong.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Perhaps you should have spent the last decade following the scientific literature a little more closely. Here are several more recent articles that describe the advantages that testosterone provides:

Female hyperandrogenism and elite sport - PMC

Emerging evidence indicates that testosterone, which can increase muscle mass and strength, stimulates erythropoiesis, promotes competitive behaviour, and enhances the physical performance of women. Indeed, the levels of testosterone within the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance - PMC

Elite athletic competitions have separate male and female events due to men’s physical advantages in strength, speed, and endurance so that a protected female category with objective entry criteria is required. Prior to puberty, there is no sex ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Once again, "I definitely think testosterone is one of the factors that should come into play. It does give competitors a massive advantage over those that get much less through puberty."
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Out of curiosity, how many articles on Google did you have to skip over before you got to those two.
 
Ddseddse said:
No.

"We" shouldn't.

The governing bodies are all over this and have been from the start. WTF do you think that "we" have to add to this conversation?

How about "we" STFU and let the governing bodies which are 1) existentially vested in the outcome, 2) have expertise at their disposal that none of us have, 3) are in possession of the specific facts about individual cases that we are blind to... how about "we" let them get on with their business and "we" stop butting our ignorant noses in where they don't belong.
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No. I think all of us ( or almost all of us) can continue to discuss the various issues involved like adults.
Calheel said:
Out of curiosity, how many articles on Google did you have to skip over before you got to those two.
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The first was number one. The second one was I think number four.
 
I love it when people post articles off google and DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO READ THE ABSTRACT. From the busy bee's third link above (I've edited slightly for readability):

Time-To-Exhaustion increased significantly by 21.17 s (8.5%) in the testosterone group compared with the placebo group (mean difference 15.5 s; P=0.045). Wingate average power was not significantly different between the groups (P=0.084). There were no significant changes in muscle strength as measured by Squat Jump, Counter Movement Jump, and knee extension peak torque.

So the testosterone gave the girls a bit more stamina (a modest gain of less than 10%) and no additional strength.
 

Leaked Medical Report Pours Gasoline On Imane Khelif Boxing Controversy​


Just days after World Boxing declared that female boxers must complete a mandatory gender test in order to compete, directly challenging controversial Olympic gold medalist Imane Khelif's status in the amateur boxing arena, a new bombshell report has now shed light on the Algerian boxers true gender.

In an article published yesterday (June 1) by Alan Abrahamson of 3 Wire Sports, the leaked medical records from Khelif's tests carried out in 2022 and 2023 ahead of the Paris Olympics have now been made public.

"Unless someone manipulates the evidence, the result is going to be crystal clear, déjà vu all over again, because in chromosome tests given amid the International Boxing Association’s 2022 and 2023 world championships, the boxer’s DNA showed XY markers with “male” karyotypes," Abrahamson wrote.

Abrahamson would go on to note that the International Olympic Committee (IOC) knew this, but still allowed Khelif to compete. The report, which includes screenshots of the lab test results, show the tests were carried out by Dr Lal PathLabs at Center of Reproductive Diagnostics at Dharamshila Hospital And Research Centre in Delhi, India. The lab is fully accredited and certified by American and Swiss organizations.

www.si.com

Leaked Medical Report Pours Gasoline On Imane Khelif Boxing Controversy

Just days after World Boxing declared that female boxers must complete a mandatory gender test in order to compete, directly challenging controversial Olympic g
www.si.com www.si.com
 
If this report ends up being true, which I suspect it will be, maybe we can change the title to "The sad case of a male whipping up on unsuspecting females in the Olympics"?
 
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ZenMode said:
If this report ends up being true, which I suspect it will be, maybe we can change the title to "The sad case of a male whipping up on unsuspecting females in the Olympics"?
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So you consider someone a male solely based on a chromosome test (unconfirmed at that) and find it completely irrelevant that the “male” has a vagina and was raised as a female her whole life?
 
Calheel said:
So you consider someone a male solely based on a chromosome test (unconfirmed at that) and find it completely irrelevant that the “male” has a vagina and was raised as a female her whole life?
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No. It's the high levels of testosterone and the chromosomes. Biologically speaking, and as it relates to athletics, you can't get much more male than that.
 
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ZenMode said:
No. It's the high levels of testosterone and the chromosomes. Biologically speaking, and as it relates to athletics, you can't get much more male than that.
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I don't know. Having a vagina seems like a pretty non-male thing, don't you think? Whenever I was in the showers at the gym, I didn't see a single vagina in the lineup (not that I was carefully examining or anything, but that would kinda stand out).
 
Calheel said:
I don't know. Having a vagina seems like a pretty non-male thing, don't you think? Whenever I was in the showers at the gym, I didn't see a single vagina in the lineup (not that I was carefully examining or anything, but that would kinda stand out).
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Your genitals aren't really relevant in boxing or any athletics.
 
ZenMode said:
Your genitals aren't really relevant in boxing or any athletics.
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They are pretty darn important in whether you are a man or a woman.

Calling someone with a vagina a "male" -- even when she has a vagina and has always identified as a female -- is certainly a choice.

You should accept the fact that gender is not always binary -- not always just male or female. There is a lot of literature on intersex. Perhaps you should open your mind a little bit.
 
Calheel said:
They are pretty darn important in whether you are a man or a woman.

Calling someone with a vagina a "male" -- even when she has a vagina and has always identified as a female -- is certainly a choice.

You should accept the fact that gender is not always binary -- not always just male or female. There is a lot of literature on intersex. Perhaps you should open your mind a little bit.
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Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
 
ZenMode said:
Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
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That’s one helluva transphobic post.
 
ZenMode said:
Again, I don't care what people identify as. You can alternate days. You can create all new genders, as people seem to do more and more often. Dress how you want. Go by and name you want. Dress like a female, a male, neutral.... I honestly....like honestly..... don't care.

I do care about males in female sports. If you're XY and have "elevated" testosterone, that's sounds like a male to me as far as athletic participation goes.
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If you are raised as a female your whole life, if you have a vagina, if you believe you are female, are you not a female? This is a fundamentally different issue than a transgender person.

Think about what you are saying. You want every single female to take a chromosome test to prove their femaleness before they compete in female sports? Why? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to pay for these tests? Who is going to pay for the counseling when females find out they are "males" according to Zen?
 
Calheel said:
If you are raised as a female your whole life, if you have a vagina, if you believe you are female, are you not a female? This is a fundamentally different issue than a transgender person.

Think about what you are saying. You want every single female to take a chromosome test to prove their femaleness before they compete in female sports? Why? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to pay for these tests? Who is going to pay for the counseling when females find out they are "males" according to Zen?
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I think there are a people who are biologically male at birth, live as a male for some portion of their lives and then decide to live as a female. Those are the people, because of their testosterone levels, who have a distinct advantage in female athletics. I support rules/laws to prevent those people from playing in female sports because it is unfair to biological females with testosterone levels in the normal range for females.

Is any law/rule going to be perfect? No. Will there be cases where there is some ambiguity? Yes and those exceptions can be handled as exceptions.
 
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