The sad case of Imane Khelif

[superrific]

Of course, another thought is to do away with women's boxing. Win-win.

I never understood the appeal of women's boxing, nor why women would champion their right to cause brain damage to the other. "Women don't box" should be a feature for the gender, not a bug.

It's like the feminists who used to advocate for women to be draft-eligible as a way of attaining "equality." I mean, I get it -- but I can't imagine that was a very popular position among women. Take the win!

Basically, women have periods and the pain of childbirth, which are two seriously unpleasant things men never have to experience. Their greater orgasmic ability partly makes up for it. But also make up for it by letting men shoot at each other and beat each others' brains!

 

[TarHeelGrad]

I really have to disagree. Those examples seem pretty legit to me and some pretty obvious examples of which way this could go. Reading the article on the second athlete, the opposing coach forfeited the game because multiple girls got hurt.

I still think this will be extremely rare, but it's worth debating and deciding how it should be handled in a hypothetical way instead of using individual kids as examples. I guess that's what everyone's doing.

As mentioned earlier, one of the girls who was hurt basically fell to the ground. She wasn't pushed. She wasn't hip-checked. She simply fell. No idea on the other instances, but I wouldn't stake your claim about trans athletes hurting other girls based upon these two articles. Both of these appear to be standard "in game" injuries that could (and have) occurred regardless of opponent.

 

[4thgenheel]

High school girls who are competitive and good in team sports (soccer, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse, etc.) are playing pick-up games with high school boys and college men all the time. Sometimes they get hurt. Sometimes the males get hurt.

A Chapel Hill girl who became an all-time UNC great , Pam Leake, played in Woollen Gym with great frequency while in high school. Why? She wanted to compete and get better.

yeah, all of the best / most competitive female athletes constantly practice and train with males.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

As mentioned earlier, one of the girls who was hurt basically fell to the ground. She wasn't pushed. She wasn't hip-checked. She simply fell. No idea on the other instances, but I wouldn't stake your claim about trans athletes hurting other girls based upon these two articles. Both of these appear to be standard "in game" injuries that could (and have) occurred regardless of opponent.

Really? How many coaches forfeit a game at half time due to injuries and fear of more injuries? That seems far from standard.

 

[TarHeelGrad]

Really? How many coaches forfeit a game at half time due to injuries and fear of more injuries? That seems far from standard.

The team already had four injuries coming into the game. Gonna be hard to pin that on the trans player.
Three players got injured during the game. One of those injuries was not due to the trans player. So now we are down to two.
On the video from the link, one of the players was injured (looks like she maybe landed on her hip) when she was trying to grab the ball from the trans player and fell down when she lost the battle. Once again, standard basketball play. And then there was one.
I can't opine on the third injured player. But unless you can show that the same injury could not have occurred against another female, this is much ado about nothing. It's pure fear mongering from the right.

I'm guessing that virtually every basketball coach in the nation would take an 'L' if they were down to 7 players, had the playoffs coming up, and likely had lost most of their major players (four of them before the game even tipped off).

 

[StrangePackage]

The team already had four injuries coming into the game. Gonna be hard to pin that on the trans player.
Three players got injured during the game. One of those injuries was not due to the trans player. So now we are down to two.
On the video from the link, one of the players was injured (looks like she maybe landed on her hip) when she was trying to grab the ball from the trans player and fell down when she lost the battle. Once again, standard basketball play. And then there was one.
I can't opine on the third injured player. But unless you can show that the same injury could not have occurred against another female, this is much ado about nothing. It's pure fear mongering from the right.

I'm guessing that virtually every basketball coach in the nation would take an 'L' if they were down to 7 players, had the playoffs coming up, and likely had lost most of their major players (four of them before the game even tipped off).

Plus he gets the added bonus of claiming it shouldn't count because of the trans girl on the opposing team.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

The team already had four injuries coming into the game. Gonna be hard to pin that on the trans player.
Three players got injured during the game. One of those injuries was not due to the trans player. So now we are down to two.
On the video from the link, one of the players was injured (looks like she maybe landed on her hip) when she was trying to grab the ball from the trans player and fell down when she lost the battle. Once again, standard basketball play. And then there was one.
I can't opine on the third injured player. But unless you can show that the same injury could not have occurred against another female, this is much ado about nothing. It's pure fear mongering from the right.

I'm guessing that virtually every basketball coach in the nation would take an 'L' if they were down to 7 players, had the playoffs coming up, and likely had lost most of their major players (four of them before the game even tipped off).

She didn't fall down when she was trying to grab the ball. She was thrown around by a trans woman who was much stronger and heavier. It was a standard play like an adult battling for a ball with a 12 year old.

And that's really the point. I agree it was a standard play.
That trans girl didn't break the rules but she did injure the girl. Its not cheating but its also not safe.

 

[TarHeelGrad]

She didn't fall down when she was trying to grab the ball. She was thrown around by a trans woman who was much stronger and heavier. It was a standard play like an adult battling for a ball with a 12 year old.

And that's really the point. I agree it was a standard play.
That trans girl didn't break the rules but she did injure the girl. Its not cheating but its also not safe.

Oh, please. This wasn't Shaq wrestling the ball away from Mugsy Bogues. "Much stronger and heavier" is a reach. If you didn't know that the girl was trans, virtually nobody would have guessed it from that play. It was simply a smaller player unsuccessfully trying to get the ball away from a bigger player. And the injury itself was ridiculous. Didn't get hit by an elbow. Didn't get body slammed to the ground. She simply lost her balance and fell on her hip. Attributing that injury to the trans player is simply looking for an excuse to exclude them.

 

[altoheel]

Of course, another thought is to do away with women's boxing. Win-win.

I never understood the appeal of women's boxing, nor why women would champion their right to cause brain damage to the other. "Women don't box" should be a feature for the gender, not a bug.

It's like the feminists who used to advocate for women to be draft-eligible as a way of attaining "equality." I mean, I get it -- but I can't imagine that was a very popular position among women. Take the win!

Basically, women have periods and the pain of childbirth, which are two seriously unpleasant things men never have to experience. Their greater orgasmic ability partly makes up for it. But also make up for it by letting men shoot at each other and beat each others' brains!

I'm sorry but what in the paternalistic BS is this? Some women box because some women enjoy boxing. If they want to box, they should be able to box. They don't need your permission or approval or head-patting nonsense about their periods or enjoyment of sex.

 

[rodoheel]

Really? How many coaches forfeit a game at half time due to injuries and fear of more injuries? That seems far from standard.

Come on man. The coach said 4 of their 12 players were already injured coming into the game and was just trying to get healthy before the playoffs. Also zero context on what any of the "injuries" were. No evidence that this was a man on a rampage breaking arms and legs left and right. Presumably the same team and player played many other games without the same thing happening.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Come on man. The coach said 4 of their 12 players were already injured coming into the game and was just trying to get healthy before the playoffs. Also zero context on what any of the "injuries" were. No evidence that this was a man on a rampage breaking arms and legs left and right. Presumably the same team and player played many other games without the same thing happening.

I think the article said they had four players unavailable which may be an injury or may mean they had to study for a test. There is video of the play where one of the players was injured. It looks pretty violent to me, but obviously there's at least one person that disagrees.

I'm saying its not standard for a coach to forfeit a game at halftime for fear of injury for his players. Typically refs can deal with a situation if a player is waving arms, etc. But what are you going to do if a player is playing within the rules but that player is much stronger and heavier then all the opponents and they're getting injured?

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

She didn't fall down when she was trying to grab the ball. She was thrown around by a trans woman who was much stronger and heavier. It was a standard play like an adult battling for a ball with a 12 year old.

And that's really the point. I agree it was a standard play.
That trans girl didn't break the rules but she did injure the girl. Its not cheating but its also not safe.

Have you ever looked at 5 star recruits in basketball and football in comparison to "normal" high school players? Should they be banned from playing because they are physically superior on such a level they could easily injure your typical player? Or is that ok because they are boys, and boys need to toughen up?

Growing up, did you not play sports around your neighborhood with groups of boys of all ages? When I was in the 2nd grade, I had to try and tackle my fair share of 5th and 6th graders. I was rarely successful at more than grabbing an ankle and holding on for dear life... hoping help got there before they dragged me into the end zone. But I sure as heck didn't just let them go past.

Playing against older, more physically developed kids made us tougher... it prepared me for high school sports when I had to go up against guys 6+ inches taller than me and 50 lbs heavier. Did I get hurt sometimes... sure. But nobody ever came running out clutching pearls that they needed to protect me from the older boys. I picked myself up, wiped the blood on my shorts, and lined up for the next play.

 

[rodoheel]

I think the article said they had four players unavailable which may be an injury or may mean they had to study for a test. There is video of the play where one of the players was injured. It looks pretty violent to me, but obviously there's at least one person that disagrees.

I'm saying its not standard for a coach to forfeit a game at halftime for fear of injury for his players. Typically refs can deal with a situation if a player is waving arms, etc. But what are you going to do if a player is playing within the rules but that player is much stronger and heavier then all the opponents and they're getting injured?

If that looked "pretty violent" to you I have to simply wonder if you've ever watched a sporting event in your life. It was an awkward fall, at most. And not against someone who looked completely physically out of place in high school girls' sports. Not against someone any bigger or stronger than athletes like Breanna Stewart, Brittney Griner, or Candace Parker were in high school. This isn.t like, someone built like Zion Williamson playing against female athletes, and it's disingenuous to suggest that someone who looks like the athlete in that video is so dangerous to female athletes that we have to overhaul the rules to make sure it can't happen.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Have you ever looked at 5 star recruits in basketball and football in comparison to "normal" high school players? Should they be banned from playing because they are physically superior on such a level they could easily injure your typical player? Or is that ok because they are boys, and boys need to toughen up?

Growing up, did you not play sports around your neighborhood with groups of boys of all ages? When I was in the 2nd grade, I had to try and tackle my fair share of 5th and 6th graders. I was rarely successful at more than grabbing an ankle and holding on for dear life... hoping help got there before they dragged me into the end zone. But I sure as heck didn't just let them go past.

Playing against older, more physically developed kids made us tougher... it prepared me for high school sports when I had to go up against guys 6+ inches taller than me and 50 lbs heavier. Did I get hurt sometimes... sure. But nobody ever came running out clutching pearls that they needed to protect me from the older boys. I picked myself up, wiped the blood on my shorts, and lined up for the next play.

Yes. I have certainly seen those five star recruits. I've also seen regular dudes who are 6 ft and about 170 like this trans girl in the video. None of those are playing with girls in high school and there's a reason for that.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

If that looked "pretty violent" to you I have to simply wonder if you've ever watched a sporting event in your life. It was an awkward fall, at most. And not against someone who looked completely physically out of place in high school girls' sports. Not against someone any bigger or stronger than athletes like Breanna Stewart, Brittney Griner, or Candace Parker were in high school. This isn.t like, someone built like Zion Williamson playing against female athletes, and it's disingenuous to suggest that someone who looks like the athlete in that video is so dangerous to female athletes that we have to overhaul the rules to make sure it can't happen.

I guess. It's a short clip that looks pretty violent. Add that to the fact that the coach forfeited after the first half and things don't seem all that standard.

 

[superrific]

I'm sorry but what in the paternalistic BS is this? Some women box because some women enjoy boxing. If they want to box, they should be able to box. They don't need your permission or approval or head-patting nonsense about their periods or enjoyment of sex.

Well, it was only half-serious, more an attempt at humor than a substantive point. My full position is something like:

1. If women want to box, that's their prerogative. That doesn't mean we should have professional boxing matches for women. Professional boxing really shouldn't be a thing, given what we now know about brain injuries.

2. Ideally, we wouldn't have men's boxing for the same reasons. If I was king for a day, after I got through doing all the important stuff, if I had time left over I would ban boxing. But in the real world, men's boxing is not going away because it is so deeply ingrained in American culture. Heavyweight champions like Ali, Marciano, Joe Louis, Foreman, and (for good and bad) Mike Tyson have been icons. But the inability to get rid of men's boxing doesn't imply that we should expand boxing more.

3. As for MMA, that ish should be illegal -- though admittedly I haven't watched it in many, many years after being repulsed by the violence when I first saw it. Maybe it's less brutal, though I doubt it. There are probably lots of brain injuries happening.

4. I didn't realize that it would be controversial that people generally like to avoid being drafted into the military during war time. That's not sex-related.

 

[rodoheel]

I guess. It's a short clip that looks pretty violent. Add that to the fact that the coach forfeited after the first half and things don't seem all that standard.

Dude do you know how many high school sporting events are played every year? Hundreds of thousands. Forfeits for injuries and other reasons happen. One game forfeited due to a unique circumstance is not some harbinger of the great danger that trans athletes pose to female high school students.

Here are several other stories about high school teams forfeiting games and even seasons due to injuries. Wonder if trans athletes are to blame? And of course most high-school sporting event forfeits likely don't make the news at all.

Vinton forfeits high school football game due to injuries

This week the Vinton Lions were supposed to be on the road to play the (8-0) Welsh Greyhounds, but that all changed after the team sustained multiple injuries this past week against Grand Lake. Due to losing 3 more players to concussions this past Friday, the Lions have now decided to forfeit...

www.kplctv.com

High school football team abruptly forfeits remainder of season

One high school football team forfeits the remainder of the season.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

New Lincoln high school forfeits game because of injuries

Injuries have forced a new Nebraska high school to forfeit its upcoming football game.

www.wowt.com

Big Foot forfeits homecoming game against New Glarus due to player injuries

Big Foot High School in Walworth forfeited its varsity homecoming game on Sept. 29 against New Glarus due to low numbers in the program and recent injuries.

www.tmj4.com

Falcon almost upset Fremont after injured-caused forfeit to El Camino

The Falcons led Fremont for most of the game on their home field Oct. 20, but fell 42-36, giving them an 0-5 record in the Peninsula Lake League. In many ways, it was a moral victory for the team considering they had forfeited a game to El Camino the week before. “We played really well...

saratogafalcon.org

Amityville football forced to forfeit game against East Islip due to injuries

"We have quite a few injuries and need to get our guys healthy," Amityville coach Jason Epps said.

www.newsday.com

 

[superrific]

Yes. I have certainly seen those five star recruits. I've also seen regular dudes who are 6 ft and about 170 like this trans girl in the video. None of those are playing with girls in high school and there's a reason for that.

But you're not addressing the point, which is that differences in size and strength are not normally reasons to exclude people.

I would say that HS Shaq or Zion was far more dangerous to the other players on the court than any trans athlete competing as a woman is to other women. Heck, look at any highlight clip of a 5 star big man. There are videos of him tossing the other players aside, or using superior strength to knock them down, or dunking on them, or making them fall when blocking their shots with force.

I didn't watch Amare Stoudamire in high school but I followed recruiting back then. He was merciless. He had an NBA body and he dunked on everyone relentlessly. Players got tossed aside with regularity and violence.

 

[altoheel]

Well, it was only half-serious, more an attempt at humor than a substantive point. My full position is something like:

1. If women want to box, that's their prerogative. That doesn't mean we should have professional boxing matches for women. Professional boxing really shouldn't be a thing, given what we now know about brain injuries.

2. Ideally, we wouldn't have men's boxing for the same reasons. If I was king for a day, after I got through doing all the important stuff, if I had time left over I would ban boxing. But in the real world, men's boxing is not going away because it is so deeply ingrained in American culture. Heavyweight champions like Ali, Marciano, Joe Louis, Foreman, and (for good and bad) Mike Tyson have been icons. But the inability to get rid of men's boxing doesn't imply that we should expand boxing more.

3. As for MMA, that ish should be illegal -- though admittedly I haven't watched it in many, many years after being repulsed by the violence when I first saw it. Maybe it's less brutal, though I doubt it. There are probably lots of brain injuries happening.

4. I didn't realize that it would be controversial that people generally like to avoid being drafted into the military during war time. That's not sex-related.

So your position is that we should ban professional women's boxing but we simply can't ban men's boxing because, due to centuries of societal sexism, it isn't as entrenched in our culture and has not produced any icons? To be clear I don't give a shit about the existence of any of the sports for any gender where the point is punching but you are extending an agency to men to choose how they use their bodies that you are denying to women.

It's not controversial that nobody wants to be drafted. The draft should not exist.

 

[superrific]

So your position is that we should ban professional women's boxing but we simply can't ban men's boxing because, due to centuries of societal sexism, it isn't as entrenched in our culture and has not produced any icons? To be clear I don't give a shit about the existence of any of the sports for any gender where the point is punching but you are extending an agency to men to choose how they use their bodies that you are denying to women.

It's not controversial that nobody wants to be drafted. The draft should not exist.

My position is that boxing should not be a sport. If we only had boxing for men, that would be an improvement over boxing for everyone.

My positions on gender equality are well known on this board, and nobody can reasonably question my commitment to gender equality. I also happen to think that the avoidance of brain injuries should take precedence over some abstract sense of perfect gender equality in which women are encouraged to beat each other up because men do. I am also a pragmatist by nature, which means that I tend to gravitate away from extreme positions that would inspire lots of intense opposition out of proportion to the importance of the issue. Suggesting that men be prevented from boxing professionally would go over about as well as defund the police.

"Agency" isn't an issue here. The entire premise of the conversation is that people sometimes have to be prevented from acting in a self-destructive way.