The sad case of Imane Khelif

[ZenMode]

No state has passed any legislation to deal with AFAB people like Imane Khelif -- at least not as far as I know.

The topic changed to transgender athletes in public schools.

 

[farce©]

Only when you’ve tried to change the subject. Go start a trans thread if that’s what you want to talk about. Stop trying to hijack this one.

 

[4thgenheel]

Gotcha.

And I agree with you that Imane is not a biological male, no matter what the TERFs or IBA say. She is in that awkward middle area that doesn’t really fit our binary world.

people being under the impression that this stuff is binary is wrong and closeminded and the entire problem.

almost everything in biology exists on a spectrum, NOT a binary.

 

[Zoo_View]

I don't follow the topic but, given that states are passing legislation to address it, it must be something worth discussing, right?

States are passing legislation to address someone whose parents looked at her as a newborn and said to one at her, “We have a daughter.” Really?

They raised her as a girl. IIRC, the father wasn’t thrilled with his daughter boxing because in his culture, girls didn’t box; yet, she enjoyed it and kept after it.

So, a young woman, born with female genitalia, isn’t a female? In her North African nation?

This thread is narrowly focused on a specific female Olympic athlete. A woman who is being called a male by self-serving right-wing Americans.

If you want to start a thread discussing transgender athletes, start one.

 

[ZenMode]

States are passing legislation to address someone whose parents looked at her as a newborn and said to one at her, “We have a daughter.” Really?

They raised her as a girl. IIRC, the father wasn’t thrilled with his daughter boxing because in his culture, girls didn’t box; yet, she enjoyed it and kept after it.

So, a young woman, born with female genitalia, isn’t a female? In her North African nation?

This thread is narrowly focused on a specific female Olympic athlete. A woman who is being called a male by self-serving right-wing Americans.

If you want to start a thread discussing transgender athletes, start one.

It's focused on a specific female athletes who has been compared to another female athlete, Christine Mboma, whose female-ness was also questioned. Christine was required to get her testosterone level down in order to compete in the Olympics.

 

[SmilingJack]

Awe man Zen & Cal going at it was like troll on troll idiocy but yeah boneheads do tend to flock to comment on ish they apparently don't comprehend. I was waiting for 2012.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I mean I can pick it apart because it's easy to pick apart. This is a recipe for absolute disaster - lawsuits, scandals, people using it for the exact kind of gamesmanship you admit is possible. It's an absolutely nightmare to administer and will cost way more time and money than can possibly be worth it to "catch" the one in a million scenario of some sort of "Juwanna Mann"-style bad actor. And perhaps most importantly, there will be so much collateral damage to the psyches of young girls and their parents - the people anti-trans bullies always claim to be advocating for - along the way. I mean "eyeball test"? Are you serious? Can you imagine telling your daughter "you're suspended from sports because some parent/coach/admin thinks you look like a man and the only way to get back on the team is to submit to invasive tests to prove you're really female"?

This is much like conservatives who want to drug-test welfare recipients or go to extreme measures to catch people committing "welfare fraud." It is never even remotely worth any benefit from it, either financially or with respect to the very real human cost. But to many conservatives the thought of one person getting some sort of hypothetical unfair advantage is so galling that they will condone all sorts of insane collateral damage to satisfy themselves that no one is "cheating the system."

Its not ideal. There is no great system but doing nothing doesn't seem fair or safe to girls either. There are an awful lot of good reasons that we have women's and men's sports and not just sports.

So yeah, its not a perfect system and probably not the best system but I think its a good way to balance several competing factors.

 

[rodoheel]

Its not ideal. There is no great system but doing nothing doesn't seem fair or safe to girls either. There are an awful lot of good reasons that we have women's and men's sports and not just sports.

So yeah, its not a perfect system and probably not the best system but I think its a good way to balance several competing factors.

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that there is any present threat to the "fairness" of women's sports (especially not at the amateur levels) or the "safety" of the girls who play it. The suggestions to the contrary are disingenuous and driven by culture-war grifting. You are positing a solution in search of a problem. You are proposing a system that would impose huge additional costs on women's sports, and cause guaranteed harm, without any reason to think there would be anything made better as a result. There is nothing to balance.

There is nothing wrong with the current state of women's sports except for all the culture-war warriors who have descended upon it in an attempt to grift and/or score culture-war political points. What will make women's sports better is telling all of these leeches to get the hell out of them, not to indulge them and make a bunch of idiotic policy changes that do nothing but cause a lot of needless pain and expense.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that there is any present threat to the "fairness" of women's sports (especially not at the amateur levels) or the "safety" of the girls who play it. The suggestions to the contrary are disingenuous and driven by culture-war grifting. You are positing a solution in search of a problem. You are proposing a system that would impose huge additional costs on women's sports, and cause guaranteed harm, without any reason to think there would be anything made better as a result. There is nothing to balance.

There is nothing wrong with the current state of women's sports except for all the culture-war warriors who have descended upon it in an attempt to grift and/or score culture-war political points. What will make women's sports better is telling all of these leeches to get the hell out of them, not to indulge them and make a bunch of idiotic policy changes that do nothing but cause a lot of needless pain and expense.

I have to disagree. Its not a widespread problem but there are certainly some cases where its happening. If your daughter was on the judo mat or in the boxing ring with someone who could dominate her physically, it would be a problem for you.

Its a small problem that should be addressed now as opposed to making those decisions during a competition. And of course some sports authorities are already doing that which I think is a good idea. The states will likely need to do the same.

 

[rodoheel]

I have to disagree. Its not a widespread problem but there are certainly some cases where its happening. If your daughter was on the judo mat or in the boxing ring with someone who could dominate her physically, it would be a problem for you.

Its a small problem that should be addressed now as opposed to making those decisions during a competition. And of course some sports authorities are already doing that which I think is a good idea. The states will likely need to do the same.

lol - how many high schools and colleges have judo or boxing programs? You're making my point exactly. You're going to implement a massively costly and damaging policy proposal for ALL WOMENS' HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE SPORTS because of what might happen on a judo mat? Propose rules for international judo or boxing competition if you want if that's what you're worried about. You have an incredibly small hypothetical problem, and you want to address it with a facially horrible blunderbuss policy that will undoubtedly make high school and college girls' sports worse for no reason whatsoever.

I mean find me one real-world example of the safety and fairness of girls' high-school sports being in jeopardy because of some sort of trans or intersex athlete participation that is permitted under current rules you think need to change. Please.

I have an interest here. I have two young daughters who play sports. Do you? I would much rather just let my kids play sports without having to worry about whether someone will make me prove what their genitals are, or have them tested for testosterone before they can play, or shame them because some opposing coach or parent decides they don't look enough like a girl. I'm not remotely worried about their sports not being "safe" or "fair" because a bunch of weirdos spend all day fantasizing about bearded men throwing on skirts and trying to play women's sports.

 

[lawtig02]

I’m one of those who thinks this issue get WAY more attention than it actually warrants, and almost all of it is driven by right wingers for political purposes. But when it comes to the merits, I just can’t get past the overwhelming sense it’s rooted more in patriarchalism than in a legitimate concern about fair competition. The best evidence of this is the absolute lack of concern about fair competition in men’s athletics. We feel no sympathy for the scrawny DE who gets blocked into the sideline by the five star OT, or the 5’10” guard who gets dunked on by the 6’8” power forward. We don’t give a second thought to the safety of the 15 year old high school freshman who’s facing a senior pitcher with a 100 mph fastball that tends to be a little wild.

Women in sports are not delicate flowers who need to be protected. The best ones are fierce competitors who will rise to any challenge without one word of complaint. I’m not that interested in joining a side in this debate at all, but if I’m choosing one, I’ll side with the badass women who work their tails off every day to prove testosterone levels are neither determinative or limiting. Leave the whining to the misogynists who will never stop underestimating the women in their lives.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

lol - how many high schools and colleges have judo or boxing programs? You're making my point exactly. You're going to implement a massively costly and damaging policy proposal for ALL WOMENS' HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE SPORTS because of what might happen on a judo mat? Propose rules for international judo or boxing competition if you want if that's what you're worried about. You have an incredibly small hypothetical problem, and you want to address it with a facially horrible blunderbuss policy that will undoubtedly make high school and college girls' sports worse for no reason whatsoever.

I mean find me one real-world example of the safety and fairness of girls' high-school sports being in jeopardy because of some sort of trans or intersex athlete participation that is permitted under current rules you think need to change. Please.

I have an interest here. I have two young daughters who play sports. Do you? I would much rather just let my kids play sports without having to worry about whether someone will make me prove what their genitals are, or have them tested for testosterone before they can play, or shame them because some opposing coach or parent decides they don't look enough like a girl. I'm not remotely worried about their sports not being "safe" or "fair" because a bunch of weirdos spend all day fantasizing about bearded men throwing on skirts and trying to play women's sports.

Firstly, I want those kids to play high school sports for social reasons. I don't want them to win championships or set State records for fairness reasons.

As for finding one example of safety or fairness, it took me about 4 seconds to Google and I found a few. Aayden Gallagher was the named one. Lots of Jane Doe's to protect a young kid which is the right thing, so a little hard to come up with more names but the articles are out there.

And yes I do have two daughters that play high school soccer. I doubt it will ever come up, but I'd be okay with them playing against other sexed athletes as long as the danger didn't rise too high. If this athlete was taking out a player every other game, then I'd revisit that opinion.

 

[Lando]

some opposing coach or parent decides they don't look enough like a girl.

People that are concerned with whether or not a child looks girly enough are the types that are quick to point out the difference between pedophile and ephebophile.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I’m one of those who thinks this issue get WAY more attention than it actually warrants, and almost all of it is driven by right wingers for political purposes. But when it comes to the merits, I just can’t get past the overwhelming sense it’s rooted more in patriarchalism than in a legitimate concern about fair competition. The best evidence of this is the absolute lack of concern about fair competition in men’s athletics. We feel no sympathy for the scrawny DE who gets blocked into the sideline by the five star OT, or the 5’10” guard who gets dunked on by the 6’8” power forward. We don’t give a second thought to the safety of the 15 year old high school freshman who’s facing a senior pitcher with a 100 mph fastball that tends to be a little wild.

Women in sports are not delicate flowers who need to be protected. The best ones are fierce competitors who will rise to any challenge without one word of complaint. I’m not that interested in joining a side in this debate at all, but if I’m choosing one, I’ll side with the badass women who work their tails off every day to prove testosterone levels are neither determinative or limiting. Leave the whining to the misogynists who will never stop underestimating the women in their lives.

I would tend to agree that it gets way more attention than it deserves than it is driven by right-wing nonsense. I do think it's a real issue despite the rareness, especially at the highest levels. There are plenty of badass women that work their tails off in some sports and will absolutely never beat a good athlete that went through puberty with male levels of testosterone. I don't think that's a great thing for women's sports.

 

[dcf2]

In some sports they'll never beat someone with significantly elevated levels of HGH or Erythropoietin.

Some of these arguments lean toward Harrison Bergeron.

 

[TarHeelGrad]

And yes I do have two daughters that play high school soccer. I doubt it will ever come up, but I'd be okay with them playing against other sexed athletes as long as the danger didn't rise too high. If this athlete was taking out a player every other game, then I'd revisit that opinion.

I would hope that ANYONE who was taking out a player every other game would be banned.
People get injured in sports all the time. The fact that someone thinks that a person born with female genitalia, but higher testosterone, is going to be like some type of wrecking (used that term just for you, gt) ball is absurd.

 

[rodoheel]

Firstly, I want those kids to play high school sports for social reasons. I don't want them to win championships or set State records for fairness reasons.

As for finding one example of safety or fairness, it took me about 4 seconds to Google and I found a few. Aayden Gallagher was the named one. Lots of Jane Doe's to protect a young kid which is the right thing, so a little hard to come up with more names but the articles are out there.

And yes I do have two daughters that play high school soccer. I doubt it will ever come up, but I'd be okay with them playing against other sexed athletes as long as the danger didn't rise too high. If this athlete was taking out a player every other game, then I'd revisit that opinion.

Aayden Gallagher is one person who won one track race at the state championships. She didn't crush the competition; it was a close race. She finished second in a different race. What's the fairness concern? Someone will always be the biggest and the fastest. Does that mean it's unfair when one person is faster than the rest of the field? Is there something special about that advantage possibly coming from having a higher testosterone level than if it comes from natural genetics?

And I see absolutely zero substantiation of the "safety" concern. Just a hypothetical fear. People always paint these boogeyman of someone who looks like Brian Urlacher playing, like, high school girls' lacrosse. Where is it happening? Where are high school girls being injured because of trans and intersex competitors? Answer: they aren't. You are making up a problem so you can make up a solution to solve it.

You think you're being generous by saying trans and intersex athletes can participate in high school sports, but not win championships or records. But all the problems that come with challenging gender, and testing for it, etc., are still there even if you're only doing it for purposes of championships and records. The bottom line is you have to go to all this trouble coming up with and implementing a policy (What are we testing for? What s the threshold? Who can make a challenge? Who ahs the burden of proof? What do we do when an athlete who's been banned sues us?) either way. You really think it will hurt less for a competitor to be told she or her team can't compete for a championship because testing determined she isn't sufficiently "female" than to be told she can't compete at all?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Aayden Gallagher is one person who won one track race at the state championships. She didn't crush the competition; it was a close race. She finished second in a different race. What's the fairness concern? Someone will always be the biggest and the fastest. Does that mean it's unfair when one person is faster than the rest of the field? Is there something special about that advantage possibly coming from having a higher testosterone level than if it comes from natural genetics?

And I see absolutely zero substantiation of the "safety" concern. Just a hypothetical fear. People always paint these boogeyman of someone who looks like Brian Urlacher playing, like, high school girls' lacrosse. Where is it happening? Where are high school girls being injured because of trans and intersex competitors? Answer: they aren't. You are making up a problem so you can make up a solution to solve it.

You think you're being generous by saying trans and intersex athletes can participate in high school sports, but not win championships or records. But all the problems that come with challenging gender, and testing for it, etc., are still there even if you're only doing it for purposes of championships and records. The bottom line is you have to go to all this trouble coming up with and implementing a policy (What are we testing for? What s the threshold? Who can make a challenge? Who ahs the burden of proof? What do we do when an athlete who's been banned sues us?) either way. You really think it will hurt less for a competitor to be told she or her team can't compete for a championship because testing determined she isn't sufficiently "female" than to be told she can't compete at all?

???? You literally asked for one example. I gave you one example.

And I think not addressing the issue is the wrong course. Do you think that at some point a large or dangerous trans athlete won't play girls lacrosse somewhere in the country? Do you think some trans girl won't win a state record that no other girl will be able to touch for 75 years? Deal with it now when it's hypothetical and not when its some actual poor 17-year-old that is splashed all over Fox News.

 

[WBroylesH]

I’m one of those who thinks this issue get WAY more attention than it actually warrants, and almost all of it is driven by right wingers for political purposes. But when it comes to the merits, I just can’t get past the overwhelming sense it’s rooted more in patriarchalism than in a legitimate concern about fair competition. The best evidence of this is the absolute lack of concern about fair competition in men’s athletics. We feel no sympathy for the scrawny DE who gets blocked into the sideline by the five star OT, or the 5’10” guard who gets dunked on by the 6’8” power forward. We don’t give a second thought to the safety of the 15 year old high school freshman who’s facing a senior pitcher with a 100 mph fastball that tends to be a little wild.

Women in sports are not delicate flowers who need to be protected. The best ones are fierce competitors who will rise to any challenge without one word of complaint. I’m not that interested in joining a side in this debate at all, but if I’m choosing one, I’ll side with the badass women who work their tails off every day to prove testosterone levels are neither determinative or limiting. Leave the whining to the misogynists who will never stop underestimating the women in their lives.

I don't recall there being much pearl clutching when hefty Zion was abusing all those toddlers in the SC Christian High School Athletic Association.

(By the way, I'm convinced that guy has some genetic mutations of his own. His body seems to be ten years older than his actual age, thus why he's already physically incapable of keeping it to NBA standards).

 

[rodoheel]

???? You literally asked for one example. I gave you one example.

And I think not addressing the issue is the wrong course. Do you think that at some point a large or dangerous trans athlete won't play girls lacrosse somewhere in the country? Do you think some trans girl won't win a state record that no other girl will be able to touch for 75 years? Deal with it now when it's hypothetical and not when its some actual poor 17-year-old that is splashed all over Fox News.

That last part is really where we disagree. "Deal with it now before it becomes a problem" is a horrible strategy. Create a much larger societal program in service of solving a hypothetical concern that may or may not come to pass? No thanks. You're willing to hurt a bunch of people and spend a bunch to "protect" people from a problem that may or may not exist.

Again, this is so reminiscent of conservative solutions to other "problems" like "voter fraud" and "welfare fraud." It's like, "we may not be able to prove these things happen but we see the potential for abuse so we should spend a lot of time and effort addressing it right now." I just completely disagree with that approach. Again, the way to solve this current "problem" is to ignore the trolls yelling about an obviously feigned concern for the "sanctity" of women's sports and to let them move on to some other idiotic cultuer-war provocation to be mad about.