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Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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I think the main difference today is a larger portion of boys aren't out growing this content. Gen Z/Alpha are much more online and with other societal shifts less will grow out of the nonsense

A majority will but more angry ignorant young men around raises probability of bad outcomes for a society and especially women. Like we've seen with other fringe ideas these things have a way of being sanitized and made mainstream
 
Paine said:
Good point. I was at the barber shop the other day and the guy cutting my hair and several others were talking about how smart Jordan Peterson is. These guys were all older than me (probably in their late 20s-early 40s), but it was clear that they were exposed to the same type of content that is leading young men down this path.
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My brother is 60 and is getting drawn into this crap.
 
Paine said:
Thankfully, I don’t think we’re at the point where fascism has fully recrystallized into a political force. There are numerous fash adjacent figures and actual fascists, but they have yet to fully coalesce together w/ the business class to create fascism.
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MAGA is fascism. We may not have succumbed all the way into a fascist government, but we certainly have fascism on the ballot at all levels of the country at this point.
 
Young men were the engine of every conflict. Almost all soldiers in history have been men, the vast majority of whom were young. This goes for goons and paramilitaries as well.
 
superrific said:
Young men were the engine of every conflict. Almost all soldiers in history have been men, the vast majority of whom were young. This goes for goons and paramilitaries as well.
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War is a place where the young kill one another without knowing or hating each other, because of the decision of old people who know and hate each other, without killing each other.-- Erich Hartmann
 
Paine said:
There’s a difference between the disaffection we’re talking about in this thread and young men being soldiers generally.
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I know. But it's still true even when applied to disaffection that leads to political unrest. Anyway, I was just being pedantic. It's really not important.
 
In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.
 
TarSpiel said:
In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.
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When I was teaching law students, I didn't get that impression of what the students wanted, and that was professional school. I mean, it's not as if I talked to them about it in any detail, but I did ask about romantic relationships among students and there were surprisingly few. Some students were already married, but there were a lot of them who were still in party mode.
 
TarSpiel said:
In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.
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I agree with this about the young students I have. I have a pretty shocking number of 18-22 year old young men who take my classes. I saybshocking because that was an absolute rarity a decade ago but I now have 5-10 of them in every group. For the most part, they are super driven to be successful and really motivated to do the right things.
 
wmheel1287 said:
For the most part, they are super driven to be successful and really motivated to do the right things.
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I teach at a community college, so I wouldn't necessarily say that my students are super driven to be successful in general, but I absolutely agree with you on the second point, they really are motivated to do the right things. They're good kids.
 
TarSpiel said:
I teach at a community college, so I wouldn't necessarily say that my students are super driven to be successful in general, but I absolutely agree with you on the second point, they really are motivated to do the right things. They're good kids.
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Ha. Maybe I have a different experience because I was teaching law school. Maybe the good kids were filtered out, and probably filtered out even more by the fact that I taught corporate law. Corporate law was not (especially as I taught it) a conservative field of law, but that word "corporation" scares away a lot of liberals.
 
Link: They Used to Rule the World. What Happened? Opinion | They Used to Rule the World. What Happened?

Not sure where to put this, but didn't want to start a new thread. Don't find myself agreeing with Conservatives very often, but this is a thoughtful piece. Probably just another Brit wailing about what used to be. I'm getting old and part of getting old involves looking to the past for examples of what to do and what not to do. But from the stand point of "we've been through worse and survived," I do find this article hopeful, as in, now that America is looking into the abyss, there is ample precedence from walking away from the edge and choosing a different path. We need not leap into the abyss just because substantial numbers of our countrymen would rather burn it all down than share the crumbs the elites brush off their tables. If we're are unsatisfied with the crumbs the wealthy share with us, the solution is not to steal crumbs from those less fortunate than even we are. The solution is to demand that wealthy meaningly contribute to the costs of running the society from whence their wealth came.
 
TarSpiel said:
In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.
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I feel like this is the first post that pointed to something other than sex-ed, sexuality and sex in society. I was expecting to hear a few more "boys don't cry" type of opinions or thoughts.
 
Paine said:
prospect.org

What Should Democrats Say to Young Men?

Young men appear to be drifting right. Ignoring them means trouble.
prospect.org prospect.org

Good article in TAP today.
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I spoke too soon. This article above is interesting stuff not 100% sex-related.

" diminished ability of men with less than a college education to support a family, while women have made gains in education and the postindustrial labor market..... The economic causes may lie in growing disparities in life chances between young men and women as the men fall behind women their age in education and college completion. "

"Trump offers young men a fantasy of manhood as an unapologetic assertion of dominance. It’s a vision that celebrates fame and power, aggression, and sex without obligations"

"Vance...exaltation of the old male-breadwinner family and sharp, biologically given distinctions between men and women."

You hear about depression and suicide skyrocketing in young teen girls and women, i wonder if there are some root stressors for both that are manifesting in ways that make red-pilling more easy for young boys & men, like employment/economic/social-pressure factors that are a little more unique pre gen X.
 
gregh1 said:
I feel like this is the first post that pointed to something other than sex-ed, sexuality and sex in society. I was expecting to hear a few more "boys don't cry" type of opinions or thoughts.
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Part of the reason for that, I think, is that we're talking about young men. Some of the suggestions here would be great for reaching thirtysomethings, but by that age, a lot of them are gone forever.

I used to lurk on an incel forum, just to get a sense of the psychology. By far the most common complaint was that Becky and Stacy only want to do Chad. But a second complaint was about guys feeling stressed about their lack of knowledge. As you can imagine, a lot of newbs to the forum were there to tell their tale of woe. Some of them were about how they couldn't ever get a date, but there were a lot from guys who got a girl in bed but everything went south from there, and not in a good way. A lot of "it was my first time, and she wanted me to know everything" or "I tried, but she just wasn't happy." And then the commiserating replies made it clear that these dudes were doing what they saw in porn and being surprised that it wouldn't work.

I posted a single time on that forum (from a fake email that can't be traced to me, not that I know of), and it was something like "porn isn't realistic. Women are bitches [gotta say that for credibility with these folks] but you're a fool if you think women want irl what they want on film." That comment was not well-received. Maybe they saw through my feigned attempt to fit in. It certainly seemed, though, that this crowd either expected life to be like porn or they turned to porn because where else are they going to learn.

I mean, it doesn't even have to be sex-ed in schools. How about movies. Instead of showing the couple getting into bed, and then waking up the next morning, how about some depiction of what goes on. And I don't mean scenes of raucous but non-revealing sex (these are likely part of the problem). How about a scene where they are kissing, and the woman says, "can you lightly touch my breast?" or "I'd love a neck rub" or something along those lines. Do that for a minute and then you can cut away to dawn.

Of course we know why nobody will show that kind of thing. It doesn't have to be that way.
 


“… Until the past decade or so, “there was an assumption that men just needed to show up for their life and they’ll get a job and have a family and be provided for, because they’re men,” says University of Maryland masculinity researcher Kevin M. Roy.

That is no longer true. While women now expect to have more and better opportunities than their mothers and grandmothers, men are in some ways bracing for the opposite. Researchers say that has created a crisis of purpose, especially for men at the entrance to adulthood. …”

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