Trump / Musk (other than DOGE)

[ZenMode]

In the non-DOD federal government? There's essentially no fraud, and little waste. The agencies that spend money absolutely do have budget constraints, and they are often constraining. I can testify to that with personal experience. What people like you just don't understand is that streamlining, in the first instance, *consumes* money. And the agencies rarely have money to spare for that sort of thing. The next thing is that *streamlining* doesn't solve any problems, because most of this isn't "waste." It's public services.

Now, in the world of federal contracting, I don't know but I'd imagine there is quite a bit of fraud and waste. That, of course, is not what DOGE is looking at. They can't. It's not something you can find in a payment system. In defense contracting, there absolutely is tons of waste but they ain't gonna be looking at that, for reasons that surely you can understand.

"The next thing is that *streamlining* doesn't solve any problems, because most of this isn't "waste." It's public services."

There's a joke about union workers. One guy digs a hole and another guy comes by immediately and fills it. The union guy, who normally places the tree in the hole is off today, but the other two guys still do their technical jobs.

It seems to me that the fact that the work being done is "public services" doesn't mean a) there is the right number of people performing the work, b) there isn't a person who's job, like the guy who places the tree in the hole, can't be absorbed by someone else and c) there's a regular look at efficiency. How often does the federal government downsize?

I've worked at a large company since 2008 and have gone through at least 3 significant downsizes. That's the cycle. We add people at all levels and we spend money and then we realize that there are too many managers, too many support people in specific jobs, too many unused tools, underutilized buildings we're paying for, etc and then we downsize. Then the cycle starts over again.

 

[NOVAHEEL13]

I did not know that about the defense contracts. That's a lot of oversight. I wonder if it's new -- my stint at C&B was a long time ago, and I'm sure I was hearing war stories from the 90s.

But I think we agree that the private contractors are by far the primary source of fiscal mismanagement.

The oversight has increased over the years with several FAR & DFARS provisions being added in the last decade along with several additional CFR requirements since 2008ish

All that said, indeed it's the private sector that's the true issue. Particularly when they get creative with their numbers that make it difficult to tell if it's fraud or not.

 

[superrific]

"The next thing is that *streamlining* doesn't solve any problems, because most of this isn't "waste." It's public services."

There's a joke about union workers. One guy digs a hole and another guy comes by immediately and fills it. The union guy, who normally places the tree in the hole is off today, but the other two guys still do their technical jobs.

It seems to me that the fact that the work being done is "public services" doesn't mean a) there is the right number of people performing the work, b) there isn't a person who's job, like the guy who places the tree in the hole, can't be absorbed by someone else and c) there's a regular look at efficiency. How often does the federal government downsize?

I've worked at a large company since 2008 and have gone through at least 3 significant downsizes. That's the cycle. We add people at all levels and we spend money when times are good and then we realize that there are too many managers, too many support people in specific jobs, too many unused tools, underutilized buildings we're paying for, etc and then we downsize. Then the cycle starts over again.

1. That's a joke, not reality. I hope you realize that.
2. I think what you don't understand is that agencies do that type of right-sizing *every single year as part of the appropriations process.* Maybe that's fallen off since we've been keeping the government open with continuing resolutions for years now (thanks, Pubs!) but for the most part, everything an agency asks for has to be justified. If they want to add capacity, they either need more money (which Congress is reluctant to give) or shift priorities.

When I was clerking, appellate judges had four clerks and district court judges two. I think that now district courts get more than two clerks (as well they should!). That's right-sizing.

3. The point about "public services" is that what seems like waste is actually part of the service. For instance, I don't know how national park rescue operations work exactly, but for the sake of discussion, let's say the park has a team of rescue operators ready at all times. Most of the time, they are not doing much. But if you cut the number of teams, replacing "on site" with "on call," you're not eliminating waste. You're compromising the service. If someone needs to be rescued, there isn't always time to wake the team up, have them drive to the office, gear up and then go. They need to go right away. I don't know if this is literally true about national parks, but it absolutely is true about parts of the government.

Also consider that personnel management is important. If there are 10 people doing a job, and you cut three of them with the expectation that the other 7 will just take 30% more work . . . I think you can see what's likely to happen there. There will be burnout and pretty soon there will only be three left.

Musk doesn't understand this because he had captive labor at twitter (i.e. h-1B visa holders). The government doesn't. So when Musk determines that a skeleton crew will suffice to cover full staffing . . . that might be correct for a few months (might). But it's not going to save money even in the medium term. When everyone quits due to overwork, institutional knowledge walks out the door. Training walks out the door.

4. The other thing you appear not to understand is that the government is generally staffed with smart people. Ramrouser would never be hired by the DOJ. The technical staff at EPA is top-notch. That's because a lot of people seek education in part for the moral satisfaction of making the world better, or at least serving a goal larger than themselves.

And when a lot of smart people get together and establish policies, those policies are likely to be at least pretty good (unless they are acting in bad faith). Again, what outsiders see as "waste" is more likely a policy that responds to situations outsiders don't even know about -- in part, perhaps, because the policies prevent those situations from occurring. It's like when the W administration (and Greenspan's federal reserve) started dismantling financial regulations. They said, "nothing bad has happened in 70 years." Yeah, nothing bad happened because of those policies. You saw what happened when the policies disappeared.

 

[superrific]

The oversight has increased over the years with several FAR & DFARS provisions being added in the last decade along with several additional CFR requirements since 2008ish

Got it. Makes sense. At some point war stories become mere nostalgia.

 

[Silence Dogood]

Republicans have been claiming this for 45 years, but numerous tax cuts for the rich have done nothing to improve the economic circumstances of anyone but the people who get the tax cuts.

I didn't say for the rich, I meant in general.

 

[NOVAHEEL13]

the government will need to rehire more people than most pubs realize. The effects will be a total shitshow. Indeed, most people have zero understanding how our fed gov works and why it needs the people it does

 

[Zoo_View]

Gutting the CDC and the NIH in a world of infectious disease is political suicide. If there's a disease wave (even short of a pandemic), Trump now owns it. It doesn't matter if the CDC funding actually contributed to it. Cut public health funding, and the public will blame you if there's disease.

I wish and hope you are correct.

If a disease wave can be blamed on a foreign lab or immigrants, a huge percentage of Americans will back Trump. Hell, if the disease(s) can be blamed on American scientists, that’ll work, too.

 

[superrific]

"Things are not okay. I am not okay."

Raphael Warnock has an answer for you, dude:



Still gives me goosebumps. Probably the most inspirational political moment I've seen in a while. That's the guy who could convince me to run through a wall for him.

 

[Silence Dogood]

Office of the Inspector General

The Office of the Inspector General is directly responsible for meeting the statutory mission of promoting economy, efficiency, and effectiveness in the administration of Social Security Administration programs and operations and to prevent and detect fraud, waste, abuse, and mismanagement in...

oig.ssa.gov

From back in August

SSA also has not implemented a number of recommendations related to its processes to recover overpayments and issue underpayments. OIG’s audits found the Agency’s actions to process over and underpayments were not always effective or consistent. SSA anticipated a new debt management product would address many of the recommendations. However, the Agency stopped implementation efforts in FY 2024 because the new product was not funded.

“Improper payments have been a longstanding challenge for SSA. While the Agency has taken actions to address this challenge, it needs to do more, and OIG’s recommendations can guide the Agency as it determines those corrective actions,” said Michelle L. Anderson, Assistant Inspector General for Audit and Acting Inspector General. “Without better access to data, increased automation, systems modernization, and policy or legislative changes, improper payments will continue to be a major challenge for SSA into the future.”

So we know it's happening, but DOGE is bad lol

 

[superrific]

Tax cuts promote economic growth.

Not in general. It depends on the tax rates that currently exist.

A long time ago, I used to have this conversation with randman. It drove him to mouth-frothing even by his standards. First, we agreed that the optimal tax rate was not 100% or 0%. Somewhere in the middle. That means that raising taxes doesn't necessarily increase revenue (the current estimate for the Laffer turning point is about 70% IIRC), but also that cutting taxes doesn't necessarily improve economic performance. It's only a good thing if the tax rates are already too high.

There's not much evidence I'm aware of that our current tax rates are too high and choking growth. In fact, most of what I've seen is that our current tax rates are suboptimal, and they can be justified as preferences but not as efficiencies. Those are professional studies by professional policy people.

 

[rodoheel]

I didn't say for the rich, I meant in general.

So it's just a coincidence that Republicans consistently give the biggest tax cuts to the rich?

But in any event, Republicans have been advocating tax cuts in general for the past 45 years; we've cut taxes; and the lower and middle classes aren't prosperous. There is no more basis for believing that tax cuts create prosperity than for believing that the tooth fairy is real.

 

[superrific]

It also depends on how you define waste. The Fourth Circuit courthouse in Richmond is massive and beautifully ornate. I can’t imagine how much it costs to maintain, heat and cool it. Most of the time, the building is largely empty. But a few weeks every year, it’s packed with lawyers and judges. The hearings held there could surely be spread out among other smaller courthouses if necessary.

Is that building a waste? I’d say not, but from a purely financial perspective, I could see the argument that its cost outweighs its benefits.

Lots of things like that in the federal government, which is why those decisions are best made by our elected representatives in Congress and not by a neo-Nazi billionaire who runs his social media company like a chop shop.

Excellent point. I'd say the courthouse is waste, though. If only there were a process by which we could have our opinions registered and tallied, along with many other people, to arrive at the result most people want.

 

[rodoheel]

Office of the Inspector General

The Office of the Inspector General is directly responsible for meeting the statutory mission of promoting economy, efficiency, and effectiveness in the administration of Social Security Administration programs and operations and to prevent and detect fraud, waste, abuse, and mismanagement in...

oig.ssa.gov

From back in August

SSA also has not implemented a number of recommendations related to its processes to recover overpayments and issue underpayments. OIG’s audits found the Agency’s actions to process over and underpayments were not always effective or consistent. SSA anticipated a new debt management product would address many of the recommendations. However, the Agency stopped implementation efforts in FY 2024 because the new product was not funded.

“Improper payments have been a longstanding challenge for SSA. While the Agency has taken actions to address this challenge, it needs to do more, and OIG’s recommendations can guide the Agency as it determines those corrective actions,” said Michelle L. Anderson, Assistant Inspector General for Audit and Acting Inspector General. “Without better access to data, increased automation, systems modernization, and policy or legislative changes, improper payments will continue to be a major challenge for SSA into the future.”

So we know it's happening, but DOGE is bad lol

Interesting that you would quote from the inspector general's recommendations when the Trump admin has just summarily fired numerous inspectors general. Why do you think an administration that claims to want less fraud and more efficiency is firing the government officials who are responsible for investigating fraud and inefficiency? Could it be...that Trump and Musk are not really being honest about their motives? The same people who in only a month have repeatedly lied about the "fraud" and "waste" they are supposedly uncovering? Surely not.

Also did you miss the part where the IG's recommendation to purchase new software to address over- and under-payments was not implemented "because it was not funded"? How do you expect DOGE is going to solve this particular problem? By randomly firing people?

 

[rodoheel]

I've worked at a large company since 2008 and have gone through at least 3 significant downsizes. That's the cycle. We add people at all levels and we spend money and then we realize that there are too many managers, too many support people in specific jobs, too many unused tools, underutilized buildings we're paying for, etc and then we downsize. Then the cycle starts over again.

Interesting, Do you think that means that your company is rife with fraud and waste? Because that's the logic you're applying to the government.

I mean you've been there since 2008 and the company keeps having these problems - do you think that means you need to be fired? That's the logic Trump and Elon are applying to the thousands of government employees they're summarily firing for no reason at all.

 

[Silence Dogood]

So it's just a coincidence that Republicans consistently give the biggest tax cuts to the rich?

But in any event, Republicans have been advocating tax cuts in general for the past 45 years; we've cut taxes; and the lower and middle classes aren't prosperous. There is no more basis for believing that tax cuts create prosperity than for believing that the tooth fairy is real.

There's more to an economy than just taxes. You can't oversimplify it like you just did. Whether the "rich" is getting a tax cut is irrelevant considering the top earners are paying over 90% of the tax burden. The US has one of the highest corporations taxes. So cutting "rich" peoples taxes isn't really happening like you think it is. This has been debunked constantly. Democrat ran cities are struggling even you can't defend that garbage.

 

[Silence Dogood]

Interesting that you would quote from the inspector general's recommendations when the Trump admin has just summarily fired numerous inspectors general. Why do you think an administration that claims to want less fraud and more efficiency is firing the government officials who are responsible for investigating fraud and inefficiency? Could it be...that Trump and Musk are not really being honest about their motives? The same people who in only a month have repeatedly lied about the "fraud" and "waste" they are supposedly uncovering? Surely not.

Also did you miss the part where the IG's recommendation to purchase new software to address over- and under-payments was not implemented "because it was not funded"? How do you expect DOGE is going to solve this particular problem? By randomly firing people?

Only 8 were fired and none at the social security administration

 

[Silence Dogood]

Interesting that you would quote from the inspector general's recommendations when the Trump admin has just summarily fired numerous inspectors general. Why do you think an administration that claims to want less fraud and more efficiency is firing the government officials who are responsible for investigating fraud and inefficiency? Could it be...that Trump and Musk are not really being honest about their motives? The same people who in only a month have repeatedly lied about the "fraud" and "waste" they are supposedly uncovering? Surely not.

Also did you miss the part where the IG's recommendation to purchase new software to address over- and under-payments was not implemented "because it was not funded"? How do you expect DOGE is going to solve this particular problem? By randomly firing people?

Again, defending the status quo and ignoring the decades of incompetence because of your hatred towards one man

 

[BlueSmoke]

Maybe its been covered, but if Musk isn't the head of DOGE then WHO is?

 

[finesse]

Again, defending the status quo and ignoring the decades of incompetence because of your hatred towards one man

We're not ignoring decades of incompetence. Most all of us voted against Republicans so we could keep the economy healthy.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

First of all, that’s not a website for Doge. It’s a link to follow Doge on X.

But let’s roll with it.

So, perusing the Website, here is a post from Musk discussing all the Social Security recipients who are dead. Then he provides as proof an Excel document with random numbers attached, posting about death fields being set to false, with no explanation of what he’s actually talking about.

Does this seem transparent to you?

That is probably true but what dogood fails to comprehend is that none of that proves any fraud. It is just that they can't account for how those people died.

As I have pointed out, when they did the study in 2015, of the 6.6 million over 112 with the death field set to false , only ***** 13 ***** were receiving any benefits. I am sure they investigated those 13.

Musk is implying that all of these people are getting some type of check. We have known since 2015 that that is false.