Trump "Press Conference" Game Thread

[ChileG]

You either misunderstand "equity" or you are a complete asshole.

We've got 2 kids at our college. One is from a good family, upper middle class neighborhood, took a bunch of AP's in high school, and will certainly transfer to a top tier 4 year university once they receive their Associates Degree from us. The other is a former foster youth who is 1/2 step away from being an alcoholic on the street, or else being sex trafficked, or both.

"Equality" means we treat them equally in terms of resources (equal money, time, personnel, counselling, bookstore vouchers, etc)

"Equity" means we give more to the foster kid to try to give him/her the same fighting chance as the kid from the stable family.

If you're opposed to "equity" in that sense, you're nothing but a heartless bastard. I'm actually truly hoping that you simply misunderstand the term.

The US tax code is entirely too complex if we need that many people working for the IRS just to enforce it. It’s honestly absurd what our system is. A much simpler tax code would achieve many objectives but one of them would be no need to hire that many IRS agents.

Okay, when that day comes we can look to cutting back on the IRS. But in the meantime it makes zero sense. Zero.

 

[StrangePackage]

the "party of law and order" when actual law and order is imposed: "no, not like that! cut their funding!"

They're still about law and order - they want the law to support and protect the societal order of their choice.

They do not want rule of law- where the law is applied to all persons irrespective of their place in the social order. Conservatism has always opposed this.

The essence of conservatism is that there must be an in group that the law protects but does not bind, and an out group the law binds but does not protect. Any time a member of the in group is bound by law, conservatives will object.

 

[1moretimeagain]

 

[CFordUNC]

I pointed out that actually 100% of them committed a crime just by being here. Then someone compared living in a country illegally to driving 71 MPH in a 70, and someone else made some comment about Trump being a criminal.

No argument from me that they serve a vital role to our economy. See below on what I believe the prudent approach to be to overcome this.

They do bring drugs into the country at a higher rate than US citizens. Just because they don’t bring in a majority of the drugs doesn’t mean they don’t still bring in a disproportionate amount, as I described on that thread.

I would be fine if Trump deported as many illegal immigrants as possible like he says he wants to do, but I acknowledged that deporting all of them will never happen because there aren’t enough resources to deport that many and he only deported 1 million in his first term. So the prudent approach is to focus our limited resources we have on deporting the ones that aren’t contributing positively to our society. Out of curiosity, who do you think would deport more as president, Trump or Harris? And do you think any should be deported at all?

The “actual problem” is that illegal immigrants are a fiscal drain when they consume our country’s resources. They receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes. The average illegal immigrant is not college educated (69% of them with no education past high school, vs only 35% for US born), which means they typically make low wages and pay little in taxes. A large percentage of them also qualify for welfare programs, often receiving benefits on behalf of their US born children. About 59% of households headed by illegal immigrants are on some type of welfare program, vs 39% of households for where the head of household is US born. They also use our public education system (cost of $68.1 billion per year). There are now about 12.8 million illegal immigrants in the country as of October 2023, which is 2.3 million higher than the number we had in January 2021 (so up roughly 22% in 3 years). That is not sustainable and we have no idea who some of these people even are.

Countries have borders for a reason and these people are breaking the law by living here. Would you prefer we just let unlimited amounts of illegals into the country if you think they are on average just as productive to our society as the average American? Or do you draw a line somewhere?

I admit it’s a complex issue because they do some of the blue collar work that most Americans are too lazy to do. But please don’t act as if there’s not also a corresponding downside to having an open border.

You know I nerd out on this stuff so I went looking for where you got those numbers (not that I didn't trust you, just that I wanted to read more context) and it looks like they came from this "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers" study that was conducted for and presented to Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee.

I'll be honest, I didn't know most of these numbers. It's definitely interesting to consider, and to see data from, the alternate side of the "immigrants are a big boost to our economy" viewpoint that I have. I had not actually really thought much about a net negative fiscal impact, so it was interesting to see the facts and figures. In particular, the education component was one that I hadn't really considered.

I thought that this part of the conclusion of the study was good and I appreciated its inclusion: "The net fiscal drain is not the result of illegal immigrants being unwilling to work. In fact, we find that illegal immigrant households are significantly more likely to have at least one worker than households headed by the U.S.-born, and there is little evidence that immigrants come specifically to get welfare.Legal immigrants and U.S.-born Americans who have relatively few years of school are also anet fiscal drain on average because they too tend to earn modest wages, make modest tax contributions, and use social services extensively. None of this should be seen as a moral failing on the part of low-income people. Nonetheless, it is the reason why communities across the country worry so much about losing their middle-class tax base, as it is primarily middle- and upper-income people who keep public coffers full."

I'll post in a different post (so as not to make this novel any longer) a counter-argument study that I found and was reading earlier that provides an interesting rebuttal, but it's really fun to kind of be able to read, compare, and contrast the two opposing viewpoints of the immigration debate side-by-side.

 

[BillyL]

When did he decide to turn white ?

I see what you did there . . !

 

[CFordUNC]

The counter-argument study to the one that was presented to the House Judiciary committee in January is this one, from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, which is a left-leaning, nonprofit think tank.

Their findings show that undocumented immigrants paid nearly $100 billion in federal, state and local tax revenue in 2022 while many are shut out of the programs that their taxes fund. These findings run counter to anti-immigrant rhetoric that undocumented immigrants are “destroying” social programs. In 40 states, undocumented immigrants paid higher tax rates than the top 1% of the income scale in those states, according to the study.

The case study, which uses estimates of undocumented immigrants’ tax contributions as of 2022, shows those totaled $96.7 billion that year. Study authors also found that undocumented immigrants would contribute $40.2 billion more per year in federal, state and local taxes if all of the undocumented population had access to work authorization. Undocumented immigrants are paying 46% of their state and local tax payments through sales and excise taxes. Six states — New Jersey, New York, California, Florida, Texas, and Illinois — were able to raise more than $1 billion each in tax revenue from undocumented immigrants,.

Undocumented immigrants also pay property taxes and sales taxes, and federal payroll taxes taken from their wages, as well as income tax returns using Individual Taxpayer Identification numbers. Despite those payroll taxes funding Medicare, Social Security, and Unemployment Insurance, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to enroll in and receive regular benefits from these social programs. They can face barriers to getting tax refunds.

The study, which uses estimates of undocumented immigrants’ tax contributions as of 2022, shows those totaled $96.7 billion that year. Study authors also found that undocumented immigrants would contribute $40.2 billion more per year in federal, state and local taxes if all of the undocumented population had access to work authorization. The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy reasoned that this boost would come from higher wages associated with employment authorization and easier compliance with income tax laws.

Immigration and economic experts who spoke about the significance of the report highlighted the Congressional Budget Office’s July report on the rise in immigration and its effects on the economy and budget, which found that this increase in immigration would add $1.2 trillion in federal revenue from 2024 to 2034

Study says undocumented immigrants paid almost $100 billion in taxes • Kansas Reflector

A new study shows that undocumented immigrants paid nearly $100 billion in federal, state and local tax revenue in 2022 while many are shut out of the programs their taxes fund

kansasreflector.com

 

[heelinhell]

I truly can’t imagine coming on a political message board and losing my mind when I find out someone is voting the opposite of me. Why even join the board if you can’t handle an opposing viewpoint?

I agree 100%

Have you offered your viewpoint on Trump's press conference ?

I would be interested in whether you are having deep concerns about Trump's mental status given his Willie Brown helicopter story

 

[CFordUNC]

Ahh shoot, sorry @nycfan I legit didnt realize I was responding to immigration stuff on the non-immigration thread. Feel free to move the posts if you want. That's my bad! I just get excited when I see good policy discussion.

 

[rodoheel]

The “actual problem” is that illegal immigrants are a fiscal drain when they consume our country’s resources. They receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes. The average illegal immigrant is not college educated (69% of them with no education past high school, vs only 35% for US born), which means they typically make low wages and pay little in taxes. A large percentage of them also qualify for welfare programs, often receiving benefits on behalf of their US born children. About 59% of households headed by illegal immigrants are on some type of welfare program, vs 39% of households for where the head of household is US born. They also use our public education system (cost of $68.1 billion per year). There are now about 12.8 million illegal immigrants in the country as of October 2023, which is 2.3 million higher than the number we had in January 2021 (so up roughly 22% in 3 years). That is not sustainable and we have no idea who some of these people even are.

Where are you getting these statistics? This paragraph seems like a lot of the justification for your thinking on this issue, and and a lot of it simply isn't true. Undocumented immigrants do not receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes - in fact they are ineligible for most, if not all, benefits programs while they pay lots of taxes (especially state and local taxes, such as property tax, sales tax, etc). If households "headed by illegal immigrants" are receiving any kind of benefits it's because someone in the household is a citizen (child, spouse, whoever) is a citizen or lawful resident and is entitled to them. The fact that their US-born children may qualify for benefits does not mean that undocumented immigrants themselves are qualified for those benefits. And I don't know what many of them not being college-educated has to do with anything, considering most work jobs that don't require a college education.

And what you still aren't really grappling with is that our economy depends heavily on a flow of low-income immigrants to perform labor-intensive jobs. That has always been the case. They pick our food, they clean our houses and businesses, they wash the dishes and cook the food at our restaurants, they provide the manual labor for lots of construction work. That has been the case for essentially the entire history of this country. Legal immigration numbers are far too low, and the system far too complicated and difficult to navigate, for us to rely solely on legal immigration for the flow of labor we need, which can't be met by domestic birth rates. Anyone who is proposing drastically reducing the flow of undocumented immigrants into our country without simultaneously overhauling the legal immigration system to significantly increase the number of legal immigrants and/or work visa recipients is not making a serious effort to address the problem; they are just posturing.

Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will cost us a ton of money and not only will it not benefit us economically, it will hurt us because we are deporting people who contribute materially to our economy. It is a self-defeating policy that is built on stoking nativist fears that immigrants will bring terrorism and drugs and take jobs away from hardworking Americans. It simply isn't true. Here's an editorial form USA Today, published earlier today in fact, with lots of links you can review for more information.

Trump's lies about undocumented immigrants hide the truth: They pay their share of taxes

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes on goods and services, on homes that they own or rent and on the income they earn.

www.usatoday.com

 

[lightbluenc]

The counter-argument study to the one that was presented to the House Judiciary committee in January is this one, from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, which is a left-leaning, nonprofit think tank.

Their findings show that undocumented immigrants paid nearly $100 billion in federal, state and local tax revenue in 2022 while many are shut out of the programs that their taxes fund. These findings run counter to anti-immigrant rhetoric that undocumented immigrants are “destroying” social programs. In 40 states, undocumented immigrants paid higher tax rates than the top 1% of the income scale in those states, according to the study.

The case study, which uses estimates of undocumented immigrants’ tax contributions as of 2022, shows those totaled $96.7 billion that year. Study authors also found that undocumented immigrants would contribute $40.2 billion more per year in federal, state and local taxes if all of the undocumented population had access to work authorization. Undocumented immigrants are paying 46% of their state and local tax payments through sales and excise taxes. Six states — New Jersey, New York, California, Florida, Texas, and Illinois — were able to raise more than $1 billion each in tax revenue from undocumented immigrants,.

Undocumented immigrants also pay property taxes and sales taxes, and federal payroll taxes taken from their wages, as well as income tax returns using Individual Taxpayer Identification numbers. Despite those payroll taxes funding Medicare, Social Security, and Unemployment Insurance, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to enroll in and receive regular benefits from these social programs. They can face barriers to getting tax refunds.

The study, which uses estimates of undocumented immigrants’ tax contributions as of 2022, shows those totaled $96.7 billion that year. Study authors also found that undocumented immigrants would contribute $40.2 billion more per year in federal, state and local taxes if all of the undocumented population had access to work authorization. The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy reasoned that this boost would come from higher wages associated with employment authorization and easier compliance with income tax laws.

Immigration and economic experts who spoke about the significance of the report highlighted the Congressional Budget Office’s July report on the rise in immigration and its effects on the economy and budget, which found that this increase in immigration would add $1.2 trillion in federal revenue from 2024 to 2034

Study says undocumented immigrants paid almost $100 billion in taxes • Kansas Reflector

A new study shows that undocumented immigrants paid nearly $100 billion in federal, state and local tax revenue in 2022 while many are shut out of the programs their taxes fund

kansasreflector.com

Wow super interesting data. So they are actually NOT a net negative after all? Especially if that had access to work authorization if I'm reading that right?

And would ADD $1.2trillion in revenue? That sounds like a good thing to me then.

 

[lightbluenc]

Ahh shoot, sorry @nycfan I legit didnt realize I was responding to immigration stuff on the non-immigration thread. Feel free to move the posts if you want. That's my bad! I just get excited when I see good policy discussion.

Shoot, apologies I started it. Yeah can move my posts there as well.

 

[CFordUNC]

Shoot, apologies I started it. Yeah can move my posts there as well.

Naw man, ain't no need for an apology! It's just great to see some good policy debate going on. This is fun!

 

[heelinhell]

The US tax code is entirely too complex if we need that many people working for the IRS just to enforce it. It’s honestly absurd what our system is. A much simpler tax code would achieve many objectives but one of them would be no need to hire that many IRS agents.

I agree 100% as long as the simpler tax code would do a better job of preventing the wealthy from evading( not avoiding ) over 150 billion a year in federal income tax.

My guess is that adding agents to increase the number of audits of super wealthy folks would be more effective than a simpler tax code,but give me a simpler tax code if it increases our revenue by over 150 billion a year and puts those tax evaders in prison.

 

[Centerpiece]

Puhleez with the facts and data. You’re only confusing the punters who can’t read nor discern analytics. The closest they can get to analytics is exit velocity and spin rate… and they really don’t even know what that means.

 

[mpaer]

You know I nerd out on this stuff so I went looking for where you got those numbers (not that I didn't trust you, just that I wanted to read more context) and it looks like they came from this "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers" study that was conducted for and presented to Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee.

I'll be honest, I didn't know most of these numbers. It's definitely interesting to consider, and to see data from, the alternate side of the "immigrants are a big boost to our economy" viewpoint that I have. I had not actually really thought much about a net negative fiscal impact, so it was interesting to see the facts and figures. In particular, the education component was one that I hadn't really considered.

I thought that this part of the conclusion of the study was good and I appreciated its inclusion: "The net fiscal drain is not the result of illegal immigrants being unwilling to work. In fact, we find that illegal immigrant households are significantly more likely to have at least one worker than households headed by the U.S.-born, and there is little evidence that immigrants come specifically to get welfare.Legal immigrants and U.S.-born Americans who have relatively few years of school are also anet fiscal drain on average because they too tend to earn modest wages, make modest tax contributions, and use social services extensively. None of this should be seen as a moral failing on the part of low-income people. Nonetheless, it is the reason why communities across the country worry so much about losing their middle-class tax base, as it is primarily middle- and upper-income people who keep public coffers full."

I'll post in a different post (so as not to make this novel any longer) a counter-argument study that I found and was reading earlier that provides an interesting rebuttal, but it's really fun to kind of be able to read, compare, and contrast the two opposing viewpoints of the immigration debate side-by-side.

Opposite of Gentifrication-now the white people mad

 

[farce©]

Draining the swamp: major candidates to be cut significantly are FBI, IRS, ATF, Department of Ed, and I’m sure there are a ton of others. The bloat is just absurd and this is an area where I think Ramaswamy was really on the right track even if he sometimes went a little bit too far - I think he was talking about 75% reductions or similar and maybe that’s possible (idk), but certainly could trim some serious fat from all of these. All the money spent on paying the bureaucrats in the department of education should be rerouted to teachers on the front lines.

Merit: I agree that socioeconomic status should be what is considered for college admissions etc, and not race or gender. A lot of conservatives like me would support factoring in socioeconomic status because that is actually targeting the right people, whereas discriminating based on race goes against everything America is supposed to stand for.

Immigration: all I’ll add here is that the reason the bill was tanked was twofold. First, Trump wanted this to be an issue Biden had to explain during the campaign. In his view, after four years of Biden and Harris letting the border crisis rage, he wasn’t in the mood to throw them a lifeline and let them pass bipartisan legislation in an election year that would mitigate Biden/Harris’s #1 weakest area from their administration. That’s just politics but I admit that’s why Republicans like Trump were happy to punt this issue to 2025. The other reason is because that bill did have some compromise in it that Republicans don’t like (Ukraine support was tied together with illegal immigration bill, right?) and they feel like if Trump wins in November, they can get what they want on immigration through Trump executive order without having to make the concessions that were in the bill.

War: no boots on the ground, but the Afghanistan withdrawal was a total clusterfuck and the situations in Ukraine and Gaza are extremely concerning to everyone. The temperature overseas in terms of wars feels a lot less stable right now than it did under Trump.

Fair share: good stats on NATO defense spending. That seems to be moving in the right direction and it needs to. Other G7 countries at a minimum need to be paying their fair share.

Transgender: this is one we’ll just have to disagree on.

Energy: I put this one last because this is the one I’m probably least educated on so I’ll admit that. But as an example, we have an entire agency (see “drain the swamp” section above) called the Nuclear Regulatory Committee that is holding us back significantly on fully embracing nuclear energy at a time when America could be at the forefront of nuclear.

Appreciate the back and forth!

So what you’re actually saying here is you want to defund the police.

 

[superrific]

The US tax code is entirely too complex if we need that many people working for the IRS just to enforce it. It’s honestly absurd what our system is. A much simpler tax code would achieve many objectives but one of them would be no need to hire that many IRS agents.

OK, but that's not a response to the question. It's like this conversation:

You: Our team is so bad at shooting 3s. We need to pound the ball inside.
Me: Our starting center is Justin Pierce. I say we keep shooting threes.
You: Yeah, well it's absurd that he's our starting center. It would be so much better if we had prime Eric Montross.

I mean, the GOP has been talking about "simplifying" the tax code for two generations. They don't do it. And the reason they don't do it is some combination of 1) they like to use the tax code to drive social policy; and 2) they like to create carveouts and loopholes for their wealthy contributors. I mean, there are various ways to do urban renewal. In the 2017 tax changes, the GOP chose to go with opportunity zones. I mean, sure. In theory they can work (in practice, not so much). But opportunity zones add complexity to the tax code, right?

Your position here on the IRS is very much like wishing our basketball team this year will have a center like Sam Perkins or even Brendan Haywood. It's just fantasy.

 

[KishiKaisei]

Ronny Jackson can’t get the good stuff anymore, so trump is probably snorting ivermectin

 

[Wheels81]

I apologize if this has been posted before, but I love what Lawrence O’Donnell had to say.

 

[altmin]

I apologize if this has been posted before, but I love what Lawrence O’Donnell had to say.

Countdown to MSNBC announcing O'Donnell's replacement after that chiding?