UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

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Heelsandeers said:
Not surprised by the outcome (Alabama is very good) but by how poor of showing it was

A home game coming off b2b losses and the whole team plays that poorly? We have officially entered disappointment territory

Defense hasn’t been close to where it needs to be and the offense looks awful for long stretches. Lack of improvement through 8 games is a major red flag
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Yes, this is where I'm at. For all intents and purposes, UNC came into this game thinking of it as a must win. To have that performance, with that mindset, is very disappointing.
 
Icky Mettle said:
Definitely crazy considering between 1969 and 2008, there were only three NBA All-Star teams that did not have Tar Heels on them (1983, 1994, and 1995). Nineteen of those All-Star teams had at least two Tar Heels. Eight of them had three. Those Tar Heel all-stars consisted of twelve different players.

Between the 1962-63 and the 1997-98 college basketball seasons, there were only twelve UNC basketball squads that did not have an eventual NBA All-Star (1966, 1967, 1971, 1978, 1979, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993).
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I don't remember the exact stat, but there was a UNC guy involved in every NBA finals from like 1980 to the mid 2000s. Maybe Boston in 08 was the first to have no UNC influence since the 70s?

Look at that talent dip in the late 80s and early 90s. Interesting. In fairness, Rick Fox and Kenny Smith won 5 rings between them as major contributors (starters, I think), so that should count for something. Pete Chilcutt also won an NBA championship with that Rockets team, as part of the "improbable I-40" tandem of Pete Chilcutt and Chucky Brown, who one would not have anticipated to play starter minutes on a championship team. It's easier, I guess, playing next to Hakeem.
 
From Greg Barnes, regarding NIL: @GrantHughes referenced last night that 18 of the top-20 centers in the 2025 class are committed and the two uncommitted don't seem to be in communication with UNC. Some of those players are committed to Virginia Tech, NC State, Notre Dame and Miami. Coaches have different preferences in the players they recruit, but UNC didn't sign a top-20 center in the 2024 class, either. I think we need to avoid blanket blame of NIL when discussing roster management. No doubt it's a factor in certain recruitments, but it's also an easy scapegoat.
 
Bigs23 said:
Which is often the simple difference between winning and losing. If you shoot under 35% from 3 and your opponent shoots over 35% you’ll probably lose.

UNC basketball has not fallen off the map like some of you like to believe.
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Said indiana and ncstate excuse makers at one time
 
superrific said:
The coaching staff was counting on improvement from our JWs and that just hasn't happened. Maybe you can fault the decision to rely on them (though it seemed that we did go after centers, we just didn't get them for various reasons), but I don't see how their lack of development can be put on the staff.

It's hard to be successful in college when you miss whole seasons in HS. Development time at that age is so critical. Wasn't JW out for a really long time in HS? I don't remember the full story if I knew it. And the other JW just has a poor BBIQ and an inconsistent motor and there's just not a lot a coaching staff can do with a guy like that.
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The coaching staff is directly responsible for the roster. If you don’t believe that it’s on them to develop the players then that’s one thing, but they’re still the ones in charge of who is on the team in the first place. No matter how you slice it, it falls on their shoulders.
 
stankeylegjones said:
From Greg Barnes, regarding NIL: @GrantHughes referenced last night that 18 of the top-20 centers in the 2025 class are committed and the two uncommitted don't seem to be in communication with UNC. Some of those players are committed to Virginia Tech, NC State, Notre Dame and Miami. Coaches have different preferences in the players they recruit, but UNC didn't sign a top-20 center in the 2024 class, either. I think we need to avoid blanket blame of NIL when discussing roster management. No doubt it's a factor in certain recruitments, but it's also an easy scapegoat.
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James Brown wasn't a top 20 center in his class? Really?

I think we need to avoid assuming that we know what goes on behind the scenes in recruiting. Maybe Greg Barnes knows what he's talking about, but maybe not. I certainly have no idea how exactly NIL does or doesn't affect recruiting.

I'm pretty sure that this new era of college basketball with unlimited transfers and professional players was not what Hubert signed up for when he left the broadcast booth. Salary cap management has never been part of the job description of a UNC coach. If HD is struggling because recruiting has changed so much, he might not be the right guy for the job -- but that doesn't mean he was a bad hire or he's a bad coach. It just means the job suddenly changed because of COVID and the Supreme Court.

I think it's fair to say that we were counting on RJ shooting better than he has. If RJ was making the shots he made last year, we'd have two more wins and wouldn't be freaking out about this loss.
 
stankeylegjones said:
I did not realize that the only top 20 center HD has signed is JWash.
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I might be mistaken but Wash was always projected as a 4 by most all recruiting guys. Just another botched situation by HD that he is forced into playing a position hes should never have to play.
 
Peppers49 said:
The coaching staff is directly responsible for the roster. If you don’t believe that it’s on them to develop the players then that’s one thing, but they’re still the ones in charge of who is on the team in the first place. No matter how you slice it, it falls on their shoulders.
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It is on them to develop the players, but some players can't be developed. Dean recruited Ed Geth and Ed Geth never amounted to anything under four years of tutelage. In fact, IIRC, Ed Geth was the teammate of Joe Smith, and we offered Ed but not Joe. Oops. Michael Brooker was a huge disappointment, as was Max Owens. Did Dean forget how to develop players?

Withers is a lost cause. He just doesn't have it. When we got him, we saw a guy with potential who could be good with some coaching and some practice but it hasn't happened. Washington has developed some -- he just had a long way to go and he's being put in a difficult situation for him.

The staff is responsible for the roster, that's true. But if you're assessing the staff, you would want to distinguish between systemic failures and a couple of one-off recruiting misses.
 
superrific said:
It is on them to develop the players, but some players can't be developed. Dean recruited Ed Geth and Ed Geth never amounted to anything under four years of tutelage. In fact, IIRC, Ed Geth was the teammate of Joe Smith, and we offered Ed but not Joe. Oops. Michael Brooker was a huge disappointment, as was Max Owens. Did Dean forget how to develop players?

Withers is a lost cause. He just doesn't have it. When we got him, we saw a guy with potential who could be good with some coaching and some practice but it hasn't happened. Washington has developed some -- he just had a long way to go and he's being put in a difficult situation for him.

The staff is responsible for the roster, that's true. But if you're assessing the staff, you would want to distinguish between systemic failures and a couple of one-off recruiting misses.
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I’m not saying there won’t be recruiting misses. Happens regularly to even the best coaches. My point is that if the coaching staff is bringing in too many of these guys that just can’t be developed for whatever reason and the team’s performance on the court starts suffering as a result, then that’s on the coaches for not building a better roster.
 
superrific said:
James Brown wasn't a top 20 center in his class? Really?

I think we need to avoid assuming that we know what goes on behind the scenes in recruiting. Maybe Greg Barnes knows what he's talking about, but maybe not. I certainly have no idea how exactly NIL does or doesn't affect recruiting.

I'm pretty sure that this new era of college basketball with unlimited transfers and professional players was not what Hubert signed up for when he left the broadcast booth. Salary cap management has never been part of the job description of a UNC coach. If HD is struggling because recruiting has changed so much, he might not be the right guy for the job -- but that doesn't mean he was a bad hire or he's a bad coach. It just means the job suddenly changed because of COVID and the Supreme Court.

I think it's fair to say that we were counting on RJ shooting better than he has. If RJ was making the shots he made last year, we'd have two more wins and wouldn't be freaking out about this loss.
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Who’s assuming that they know what is going on behind the scenes? You don’t think he signed up for it when he signed his contract as the new head coach? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here.
 
UNCRx85 said:
Over time, tho, talent wins out. You want to be the casino, not the gambler.
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Yes, but in each singular CBB season a team of high quality veterans with maybe one OAD is going on consistently outperform teams with multiple revolving OADs.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
That's a good post, and I agree with nearly all of it. I also don't think he'll be fired at the end of the season if they don't make the NCAA Tournament or bow out early and have a lot of losses, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I still support him and given the rapidly changing nature of college sports I'm not sure that anyone else would have navigated this any better. Having said that, if we do fail make the NCAA tourney then I do think he will start to feel some real pressure moving into next year, no question. Your post did a good job, I thought, of showing how justified the complaints against him will be if that turns out to be the case. I like him and certainly hope he turns it around.
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I’ll be honest, I wasn’t a fan of the way UNC hired Hubert in 2021. I get that it’s what Roy wanted and he earned the right to have some influence, but the process felt lazy to me. I do like Hubert though and on balance I agree that he’s done a solid job through 3 seasons all things considered. Would love nothing more for him to have a long and successful career here.

I worry about him because the margin for error at UNC is (rightfully) pretty thin. People can dismiss all of the early season losses as unimportant or say that some of the flaws of the team are exaggerated if that makes them feel better, but the reality is that the turnaround needs to happen soon or there is real danger of missing the tournament. Having that happen in 2 out of 4 seasons + going into a season where the roster will likely be even thinner than this season would be a bad combination. The outside noise would be a lot to overcome.
 
stankeylegjones said:
Who’s assuming that they know what is going on behind the scenes?
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The guy who posted that NIL is more excuse than explanation.

As for HD, of course he signed up for it when he signed on as HC. I was talking about the decision to get into coaching in the first place. He didn't need to be a coach, right? He made $$ as an NBA player, and was making $$ as a TV personality. He went into coaching, I think, for love of the job. And if it turns out that the job is really, really different than it was -- well, again, it doesn't make him a bad coach or a bad hire. And please understand I am not at all on the "fire HD" wagon, not at all, not right now at least. I'm just saying that if his tenure ends up with a lack of success, there's a lot more to it than "HD wasn't a good coach."
 
Peppers49 said:
2023 preseason #1 debacle. That season felt so much worse than it actually was because of the dubious distinction of being the only preseason #1 team to miss the tournament constantly getting thrown in our faces. Had we been like preseason #18 and had the same exact season, I think it would have been much easier for us to give a mulligan to a second year coach still figuring things out.
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Had we been preseaason #18 that year, we would have gotten a bid to the NCAAT.
 
Peppers49 said:
I’m not saying there won’t be recruiting misses. Happens regularly to even the best coaches. My point is that if the coaching staff is bringing in too many of these guys that just can’t be developed for whatever reason and the team’s performance on the court starts suffering as a result, then that’s on the coaches for not building a better roster.
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Sure, but it's also true that some things are hard to foresee.

Did Roy know that Ty would be an alcoholic? Fortunately it didn't really affect Ty when he was here (except possibly to keep him here an extra year, fortuitously), but it could have. From what I understand, Duhon had a huge drinking problem at Duke, which was one reason he didn't really get better. Greg Newton took up smoking. Ed Geth decided he liked poetry better than basketball. Julius Hodge didn't eat much. So on and so forth.

I think it's fair to say that the main problem with the team is Tyson. He was the marquee addition and he has barely played. If we had the guy we thought we were going to get -- at least the optimists -- we'd be in a much better place. And if you want to put that failure on the staff -- I mean, they chose to go after him and recruited him hard. So sure. It looks like quite the mistake. At the same time, HD was not the only guy going after Cade Tyson. Lots of schools wanted in on him; the recruiting rankings had him as one of the top portal players; and he was widely seen as a good fit. Sure, there were concerns about him as well and so his struggles can't be said to be unforeseeable. It's something that hasn't worked out so far, and might never.
 
superrific said:
The guy who posted that NIL is more excuse than explanation.

As for HD, of course he signed up for it when he signed on as HC. I was talking about the decision to get into coaching in the first place. He didn't need to be a coach, right? He made $$ as an NBA player, and was making $$ as a TV personality. He went into coaching, I think, for love of the job. And if it turns out that the job is really, really different than it was -- well, again, it doesn't make him a bad coach or a bad hire. And please understand I am not at all on the "fire HD" wagon, not at all, not right now at least. I'm just saying that if his tenure ends up with a lack of success, there's a lot more to it than "HD wasn't a good coach."
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You seem to be assuming more than what he actually stated. He stated it is part of the problem, but not the only part of the problem. Nowhere did he say it is an excuse.

Thanks for clarifying your second point.
 
stankeylegjones said:
You seem to be assuming more than what he actually stated. He stated it is part of the problem, but not the only part of the problem. Nowhere did he say it is an excuse.

Thanks for clarifying your second point.
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That's fine. I didn't parse the comment very closely; it was only a social media comment (IIRC without looking back); and it doesn't matter that much. You're welcome for the clarification.

I guess part of my approach is that I am exceedingly reluctant to harsh on a great Heel. We can simultaneously think that maybe HD isn't the right guy for the job right now, and also that he is a good coach and a good person (and of course, I am not remotely the only person to think so; this is a common though far from universal sentiment).

Matt Doherty was different. He had been a great Heel as a player, but he turned out to be a mega-asshole as a coach (and possibly more). I didn't have an issue with jettisoning him. HD doesn't present anything like that.
 
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