UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

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What might be the response to the assertion that "the program began to decline the moment that Coach Smith resigned."
 
StoneColdHeel said:
Hubert is going to get at least one more season after this one to see if things can be turned around. I am worried next season might be worse, though.
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Yeah, we need to realize that a message board like this typically contains the more passionate fans that are going to be quicker to want to move on from a coach compared to the vast majority of our fan base and the people actually making the decisions behind the scenes.

Barring a very dramatic turnaround to this season (maybe 2 or 3 more regular season losses at most, in serious contention for regular season title) I personally think the best decision would be to move on from Hubert and do a thorough search for the best possible candidate. In reality, he will almost certainly get at least one more season to turn things around barring a complete collapse on the court (finishing well below .500, players have clearly quit on him) or something unexpected off the field.
 
donbosco said:
What might be the response to the assertion that "the program began to decline the moment that Coach Smith resigned."
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Dean set an impossible standard. His coaching skill was almost unmatched, and for a number of reasons the level of parity in the sport was significantly lower during that era. We’ll almost certainly never see the level of consistent dominance that Dean achieved again, and that’s fine.
 
StoneColdHeel said:
Hubert is going to get at least one more season after this one to see if things can be turned around. I am worried next season might be worse, though.
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Yes. I think everyone hates coach churn so the NIL money will flow in the offseason and try to make sure he’s successful. He won’t be and next year will be another wasteful year.
 
Re: Hubert: I remember when Roy was still head coach, a lot of people were talking about Hubert being his successor. I thought that was crazy talk. After all, not only did Hubert have no head coaching experience (I’m not counting coaching the JV team); he had no coaching experience whatsoever prior to Roy hiring him as an assistant. I assumed UNC would look to hire someone with a strong resume as a head coach.

As it turned out, I was wrong. Hubert was the successor. And at the time, I was totally cool with it. There really weren’t any head coaches out there we had a realistic chance of getting that I was excited about. So might as well take a chance on a Carolina guy who learned under Roy and who Roy believed was the guy. And I very much wanted Hubert to succeed.

For much of the 2021-22 season, I wasn’t convinced Hubert was the guy. The team often looked out of sync and we suffered some really bad looking losses. But I thought Hubert deserved a chance. I thought he deserved at least three seasons to show what he could do.

Then we beat Duke in K’s last game in Cameron, reached the Final Four, knocked out Duke ending K’s career, and went on to the national championship game in which we lost by only 3 points with an injured Bacot, concussed Manek, and with Love badly turning his ankle in the middle of the second half. I was all in on the Hubert train at that point.

After being super excited about the then upcoming 2022-23 season, thinking we were frontrunners to win the national championship, I— like all other Tar Heel fans— watched the season with extreme disappointment. And there were a number of things that made me question the coaching, such as lack of ball movement, players dribbling too much, lack of movement without the ball, lots of one-on-one plays, and Caleb Love constantly playing hero ball without repercussion. While I was becoming concerned, I had faith in Hubert based on what he accomplished the year before.

Prior to the 2023-24 season, I was really impressed with Hubert’s recruiting. He offered a scholarship to, and landed, Drake Powell, who then climbed way up the recruiting rankings, suggesting Hubert had an eye for talent. He landed Ian Jackson, who I believe was ranked no. 2 in the class at the time. And he had already landed Elliot Cadeau, who was originally from that class but reclassified. On top of that, he did a great job in the portal, landing Harrison Ingram and Cormac Ryan.

I was very happy with the way the 2023-24 season went. While I still had some issues with lack of ball movement, lack of movement without the ball, players over-dribbling, etc., the results were good. We looked good enough to contend for a national championship, and our landing a #1 seed in the NCAAT confirmed that. Even though we lost in the Sweet 16, I did not hold that against Hubert. I’ve seen enough great Carolina teams fail to make it to the Final Four. It happens. We lost by 2 points in a game where our best player and most dangerous shooter went 0-9 from beyond the arc and where
Bacot missed a dunk.

In the offseason, I was disappointed that we didn’t land a quality big in the portal, which we really needed. I couldn’t really pin that entirely on Hubert because I understand that NIL plays a very big role these days in recruiting both HS players and players from the portal, and I understand that what UNC can offer in terms of NIL money is somewhat out of Hubert’s control.

Based on our lack of quality bigs, I was concerned about how we could perform this season. I did feel that our guards could at least make us a solid team, but I didn’t expect us to be a legit title contender unless Jalen Washington showed considerable improvement, which, unfortunately, he has not.

Sadly, this team has vastly underperformed my rather tempered expectations, and has not looked good doing it. The things that have concerned me about the way we play since Hubert took over seem glaring this season. And I am becoming concerned about recruiting.

I may be in a minority, as I am okay with Hubert getting another year after this. He has indicated that the NIL well has been too limited, and I’m okay with giving him everything he needs in terms of NIL funds to see what he can do. If he doesn’t get it done after that, then he’s not the guy for sure.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not convinced he’s the guy now and I have serious concerns. But I want him to have a fair shot.
 
If Hubert is to stay as head coach, then he at least needs a GM - especially since we aren't assured to bring back anyone from this team. If the team tailspins the rest of the way, we should expect a lot of transfers. And if we couldn't land a starting center to fit into this roster when it was clear to God and everybody that was the biggest gap in the roster, do we expect we will be able to land 6 or 7 or 8 strong contributors? Scouting, building relationships, figuring out the NIL part, etc in just a short time?
 
SnoopRob said:
That’s a fair adjustment, but then I think you have to look at strength of schedule for each squad to see how good the comparison is.

We’ve played an incredibly hard OOC schedule this year. If we’d have chosen a more forgiving OOC schedule, we could likely have a much improved record right now and be closer to something like 10-4.
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I don’t disagree. This has been a brutal schedule, but we have played tough early season schedules before. In the first 14 games of 2020, we played (based on rankings at the time we played them), #11 Oregon, #6 Ohio State, at #5 Virginia, and at #2 Gonzaga. In 2022, #6 Purdue, #17 Tennessee, #24 Michigan, and #21 Kentucky. Last season, #20 Arkansas, #10 Tennessee, #5 UConn, #14 Kentucky, #7 Oklahoma, and at #16 Clemson.

This season, it’s been (again, based on where teams were ranked at the time we played them), at #1 Kansas, #4 Auburn, #10 Alabama, #10 Florida, and #18 UCLA.

Basically, my point is that at UNC you don’t expect to have as many as 6 losses in the first 14 games regardless of schedule.
 
SnoopRob said:
I'm going to be kind here.

I normally like you as a poster and think this is way out of the norm for you.

I have no idea why my post would engender this kind of response from you. It's fine if you disagree with my perspective and point, but this kind of over-the-top response is a bad look for you.

Hubert was in no way, shape, or form qualified by any objective measures to take over a Top 3 program in college basketball. There were never any reports of him being lauded as a key assistant coach for the Heels and no reports that he was a sought-after coach by other programs. He was, in essence, a nepo hire because Roy wanted him as the next coach.
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The reason your post embarrasses you and offends me is because whether you intended it or not, or even understand it or acknowledge it — what you’ve done is not only attack Roy Williams’ understanding of HIS program, and Dean’s before that… and attacked his best and most informed estimation of who was right for the program at that time… but you’ve attacked his *integrity and character* by calling HD a “nepo hire” and saying the promotion was as unearned as a spoiled HS grad at daddy’s plant. If an absurd claim like that came from some random corner of the internet then I wouldn’t even pay attention. But for it to come from a Carolina fan, that offends the hell out of me — on my behalf, but mostly on Roy’s and Hubert’s. That’s how my dander got up, since you don’t seem to understand how. There were times when I questioned Roy’s X’s and O’s and timeouts and whatever else over the years (despite never having coached a game in my life), and could see the game was passing him by in the late seasons. Many of us probably did. But we all knew his character is and always was *unassailable.* So to accuse him of a low character move in orchestrating an unearned nepo hire, where someone else was more deserving? When it’s a fact that at every turn he would’ve been asking himself ‘what would Coach Smith want?’ Nope. A claim like yours is what’s “not a good look.”

So then, putting aside you accusing Roy of even being capable of something like that… it’s viewed as “unearned” by your estimation. Never mind that HD had a lifetime of basketball and life experience and close tutelage under Dean Smith, Pat Riley (and Van Gundy his assistant) in the gritty ‘90s playoffs runs, Don Nelson in Dallas for several years, and probably many others I’m missing. Among the most brilliant basketball minds, and leaders.

Then after a very successful NBA career he goes to the highest level of sports media where he learns the game from that side of things — attends practices and gains insights from who knows how many top programs and coaches over those years, and immediately rises as one of the top and best-liked analysts, and *importantly* learns firsthand how the media operates from that side, and therefore gains experience in how best to interact with them to his advantage from the coaching side.

Then he spends a very successful decade studying Roy Williams from the next seat over, through ups and downs, and even winning a title as his assistant. Coaching the JV team, a position Roy himself had held (before going on to become a head coach with no official head coaching experience himself), and a position he saw as valuable experience (having put Haase in that role before he went on to UAB and Stanford).

But you’re dismissing ALL of that, all of which was accomplished at the highest levels the sport has to offer, in the biggest of spotlights… as not worthy of measuring up against a handful of nice seasons at a relatively low-stakes, low mid-major program, since Wes was your guy.

It’s wild to me that anyone could diminish HD’s worthiness for the job. And you’re dismissing him in part because you hadn’t heard any reports of him being all that important on Roy’s staff? Uhh ok. Why do you think Roy brought him in, and HD wanted that assistant job in the first place? If it was not explicitly made known by Roy to HD (which it probably was), it was implicit that he was being evaluated and ultimately groomed for the head spot. And everything that Roy had observed and had been through with him in that decade-long tenure left him with no doubt that he was most deserving candidate.

So no, it was not any kind of shortcut or “nepo hire” or whatever bs you seem to believe, based on your knowledge of head coaching resumes for the demands of century-old blue blood programs vs. Roy’s knowledge. While success is never guaranteed, HD earned his shot, clear as day. Roy Williams knew that, he saw it firsthand. A little more humility and deference to his perspective, and a little less certainty in yours… and you might see that too.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I don’t disagree. This has been a brutal schedule, but we have played tough early season schedules before. In the first 14 games of 2020, we played (based on rankings at the time we played them), #11 Oregon, #6 Ohio State, at #5 Virginia, and at #2 Gonzaga. In 2022, #6 Purdue, #17 Tennessee, #24 Michigan, and #21 Kentucky. Last season, #20 Arkansas, #10 Tennessee, #5 UConn, #14 Kentucky, #7 Oklahoma, and at #16 Clemson.

This season, it’s been (again, based on where teams were ranked at the time we played them), at #1 Kansas, #4 Auburn, #10 Alabama, #10 Florida, and #18 UCLA.

Basically, my point is that at UNC you don’t expect to have as many as 6 losses in the first 14 games regardless of schedule.
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I generally agree with you, but you're seemingly making a big deal out of 6 losses vs 5 and when that's the case, playing 6 ranked teams vs 4 is a major difference.

But, on the whole, I agree with you. 6 losses in the first 14 games is certainly below expectations at Carolina.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
What's your metric? For example the 2009 team played some of the best basketball ever seen at Carolina.
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2009 was indeed a powerful squad and the team played beautiful basketball no argument about that. But I wrote 'program' in my query very much on purpose. The program, at least to me, encompasses more than on-court performance and is much more tied to a way of seeing and being...we know it as "The Carolina Way" and it was an expression of Coach Smith's entire ethos/worldview. His book, co-authored with John Kilgo, A Coach's Life pretty much lays it out.

Of course I'm being somewhat contrarian here but i'm 66 years old, graduated from UNC the first time in 1980 and again in 1997, thus my most formative years were enveloped by Coach Smith's time at Carolina (I literally cannot remember McGuire as a UNC coach). Nothing has ever lived up to that for me. Coach Williams tried...and I love him for his own dedication to that "Carolina Way." Coach Guthridge was somewhat of a co-creator of that "Way" to be sure but he was himself shaped by Coach Smith and as was always evident, a sidekick (I do not mean that any way but positively I can assure you). I do not want to even recollect the Doherty time. He has proven subsequently that his own dedication to Coach Smith's "Carolina Way" is but superficial.
 
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duluoz said:
The reason your post embarrasses you and offends me is because whether you intended it or not, or even understand it or acknowledge it — what you’ve done is not only attack Roy Williams’ understanding of HIS program, and Dean’s before that… and attacked his best and most informed estimation of who was right for the program at that time… but you’ve attacked his *integrity and character* by calling HD a “nepo hire” and saying the promotion was as unearned as a spoiled HS grad at daddy’s plant. If an absurd claim like that came from some random corner of the internet then I wouldn’t even pay attention. But for it to come from a Carolina fan, that offends the hell out of me — on my behalf, but mostly on Roy’s and Hubert’s. That’s how my dander got up, since you don’t seem to understand how. There were times when I questioned Roy’s X’s and O’s and timeouts and whatever else over the years (despite never having coached a game in my life), and could see the game was passing him by in the late seasons. Many of us probably did. But we all knew his character is and always was *unassailable.* So to accuse him of a low character move in orchestrating an unearned nepo hire, where someone else was more deserving? When it’s a fact that at every turn he would’ve been asking himself ‘what would Coach Smith want?’ Nope. A claim like yours is what’s “not a good look.”

So then, putting aside you accusing Roy of even being capable of something like that… it’s viewed as “unearned” by your estimation. Never mind that HD had a lifetime of basketball and life experience and close tutelage under Dean Smith, Pat Riley (and Van Gundy his assistant) in the gritty ‘90s playoffs runs, Don Nelson in Dallas for several years, and probably many others I’m missing. Among the most brilliant basketball minds, and leaders.

Then after a very successful NBA career he goes to the highest level of sports media where he learns the game from that side of things — attends practices and gains insights from who knows how many top programs and coaches over those years, and immediately rises as one of the top and best-liked analysts, and *importantly* learns firsthand how the media operates from that side, and therefore gains experience in how best to interact with them to his advantage from the coaching side.

Then he spends a very successful decade studying Roy Williams from the next seat over, through ups and downs, and even winning a title as his assistant. Coaching the JV team, a position Roy himself had held (before going on to become a head coach with no official head coaching experience himself), and a position he saw as valuable experience (having put Haase in that role before he went on to UAB and Stanford).

But you’re dismissing ALL of that, all of which was accomplished at the highest levels the sport has to offer, in the biggest of spotlights… as not worthy of measuring up against a handful of nice seasons at a relatively low-stakes, low mid-major program, since Wes was your guy.

It’s wild to me that anyone could diminish HD’s worthiness for the job. And you’re dismissing him in part because you hadn’t heard any reports of him being all that important on Roy’s staff? Uhh ok. Why do you think Roy brought him in, and HD wanted that assistant job in the first place? If it was not explicitly made known by Roy to HD (which it probably was), it was implicit that he was being evaluated and ultimately groomed for the head spot. And everything that Roy had observed and had been through with him in that decade-long tenure left him with no doubt that he was most deserving candidate.

So no, it was not any kind of shortcut or “nepo hire” or whatever bs you seem to believe, based on your knowledge of head coaching resumes for the demands of century-old blue blood programs vs. Roy’s knowledge. While success is never guaranteed, HD earned his shot, clear as day. Roy Williams knew that, he saw it firsthand. A little more humility and deference to his perspective, and a little less certainty in yours… and you might see that too.
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Jesus christ francis roy williams wouldnt piss on you if you were on fire.

You are gonna be one mental case when yours and roys golden boy gets shit canned this year.
 
StoneColdHeel said:
Hubert is going to get at least one more season after this one to see if things can be turned around. I am worried next season might be worse, though.
Click to expand...
I just don't see what Bubba has seen from HD and staff that leads him to believe that they'll get it back in the right direction. He fired Mack because of lack of on-field success and downtrends in recruiting. HD/staff have both of those happening now, and next year looks like it will take miraculous turn of events to have a good recruiting class + transfer portal - and he's been striking out on both.
 
HeelInTheOzarks said:
If Hubert is to stay as head coach, then he at least needs a GM - especially since we aren't assured to bring back anyone from this team. If the team tailspins the rest of the way, we should expect a lot of transfers. And if we couldn't land a starting center to fit into this roster when it was clear to God and everybody that was the biggest gap in the roster, do we expect we will be able to land 6 or 7 or 8 strong contributors? Scouting, building relationships, figuring out the NIL part, etc in just a short time?
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Apparently he was against the idea.
 
donbosco said:
2009 was indeed a powerful squad and the team played beautiful basketball no argument about that. But I wrote 'program' in my query very much on purpose. The program, at least to me, encompasses more than on-court performance and is much more tied to a way of seeing and being...we know it as "The Carolina Way" and it was an expression of Coach Smith's entire ethos/worldview. His book, co-authored with John Kilgo, A Coach's Life pretty much lays it out.

Of course I'm being somewhat contrarian here but i'm 66 years old, graduated from UNC the first time in 1980 and again in 1997, thus my most formative years were enveloped by Coach Smith's time at Carolina (I literally cannot remember McGuire as a UNC coach). Nothing has ever lived up to that for me. Coach Williams tried...and I love him for his own dedication to that "Carolina Way." Coach Guthridge was somewhat of a co-creator of that "Way" to be sure but he was himself shaped by Coach Smith and as was always evident, a sidekick (I do not mean that any way but positively I can assure you). I do not want to even recollect the Doherty time. He has proven subsequently that his own dedication to Coach Smith's "Carolina Way" is but superficial.
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Can't argue with any of that. The increasing professionalization of the sport rendered The Carolina Way a historical artifact. Roy did as best he could through a lot of turbulence, and now we're rounding into an entirely new era altogether. We all want Carolina to recapture something, but mostly it's success on the court and in style of play.
 
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