UNC ONLY BASKETBALL 2024-25 SEASON

[stankeylegjones]

The real question is: does Greg Popovich have a son who wants to be a head coach in waiting at UNC?

?

 

[SnoopRob]

The reason your post embarrasses you and offends me is because whether you intended it or not, or even understand it or acknowledge it — what you’ve done is not only attack Roy Williams’ understanding of HIS program, and Dean’s before that… and attacked his best and most informed estimation of who was right for the program at that time… but you’ve attacked his *integrity and character* by calling HD a “nepo hire” and saying the promotion was as unearned as a spoiled HS grad at daddy’s plant. If an absurd claim like that came from some random corner of the internet then I wouldn’t even pay attention. But for it to come from a Carolina fan, that offends the hell out of me — on my behalf, but mostly on Roy’s and Hubert’s. That’s how my dander got up, since you don’t seem to understand how. There were times when I questioned Roy’s X’s and O’s and timeouts and whatever else over the years (despite never having coached a game in my life), and could see the game was passing him by in the late seasons. Many of us probably did. But we all knew his character is and always was *unassailable.* So to accuse him of a low character move in orchestrating an unearned nepo hire, where someone else was more deserving? When it’s a fact that at every turn he would’ve been asking himself ‘what would Coach Smith want?’ Nope. A claim like yours is what’s “not a good look.”

So then, putting aside you accusing Roy of even being capable of something like that… it’s viewed as “unearned” by your estimation. Never mind that HD had a lifetime of basketball and life experience and close tutelage under Dean Smith, Pat Riley (and Van Gundy his assistant) in the gritty ‘90s playoffs runs, Don Nelson in Dallas for several years, and probably many others I’m missing. Among the most brilliant basketball minds, and leaders.

Then after a very successful NBA career he goes to the highest level of sports media where he learns the game from that side of things — attends practices and gains insights from who knows how many top programs and coaches over those years, and immediately rises as one of the top and best-liked analysts, and *importantly* learns firsthand how the media operates from that side, and therefore gains experience in how best to interact with them to his advantage from the coaching side.

Then he spends a very successful decade studying Roy Williams from the next seat over, through ups and downs, and even winning a title as his assistant. Coaching the JV team, a position Roy himself had held (before going on to become a head coach with no official head coaching experience himself), and a position he saw as valuable experience (having put Haase in that role before he went on to UAB and Stanford).

But you’re dismissing ALL of that, all of which was accomplished at the highest levels the sport has to offer, in the biggest of spotlights… as not worthy of measuring up against a handful of nice seasons at a relatively low-stakes, low mid-major program, since Wes was your guy.

It’s wild to me that anyone could diminish HD’s worthiness for the job. And you’re dismissing him in part because you hadn’t heard any reports of him being all that important on Roy’s staff? Uhh ok. Why do you think Roy brought him in, and HD wanted that assistant job in the first place? If it was not explicitly made known by Roy to HD (which it probably was), it was implicit that he was being evaluated and ultimately groomed for the head spot. And everything that Roy had observed and had been through with him in that decade-long tenure left him with no doubt that he was most deserving candidate.

So no, it was not any kind of shortcut or “nepo hire” or whatever bs you seem to believe, based on your knowledge of head coaching resumes for the demands of century-old blue blood programs vs. Roy’s knowledge. While success is never guaranteed, HD earned his shot, clear as day. Roy Williams knew that, he saw it firsthand. A little more humility and deference to his perspective, and a little less certainty in yours… and you might see that too.

My post doesn't embarrass me, but what ought to embarrass you is that you routinely misunderstand what I say by both failing to comprehend it accurately and by assigning intent to it that isn't present. You have done it a number of times on this thread to where you're essentially unintentionally creating strawmen due to a lack of basic reading comprehension.

I'm not attacking Roy's understanding of the program nor his character...but that doesn't mean that Roy gets every decision correct, either. Everyone, no matter how good they are at what they do, has blind spots and places where they misjudge certain people or situations. Whatever his reasons for preferring Hubert for the position, it's pretty clear that Roy's preference was not one that proved correct. Hubert has been shown to be thoroughly mediocre in his role as HC at Carolina and that an unnecessarily risky choice has produced mediocre results. The real failure here is that a good process to hire Roy's successor would have made such an outcome much less likely by putting in criteria for the hire that precluded someone without proven HC success. Carolina is a top 3 program (at worst) in college basketball, there is no reason that the floor for the HC position shouldn't include proven success as a HC, almost certainly at a G5-level program.

There are literally hundreds of folks we could list beyond HD that have similar "achievements" to what he had when he was hired to be the HC at Carolina. And I would guarantee you almost none of theme were considered for the Carolina HC role. Why? Because they weren't Roy's pereference. That's the very definition of a "nepo hire"...Hubert was only selected because he was the strong preference of the outgoing HC and not because his achievements as a coach made him not only a clear successor, but one that should have failed to have met the minimum criteria that would have come from a good hiring process.

Also, just to clarify another place you misunderstand, Wes Miller would have only been my preference if we absolutely insisted on hiring from within the family. My strong preference was (and is) to go outside the family to get the most accomplished coach we can who shows an appreciation for what has already come before at Carolina and desires to be the next stage in continuing both the on-court accomplishments but also off-court excellence that is the hallmark of Carolina Basketball.

The point in all of this isn't that "my guy" or "Roy's guy" or "Bubba's guy" or "duluoz's guy" should have been hired, the point is that a competent process which engaged with multiple reasonable options weighed via a rubric of criteria based on proven college basketball coaching success should have been completed and the "best available" candidate hired. And it's clear that we failed to do that because we instead moved very quickly to hire "Roy's choice" for the position.

So the only way you can say that Hubert "earned" the position is if you admit that the only criterion was "Roy wanted him". The problem you face is that such a sole criterion makes a mockery of the term "earned" by making it not about achievement in any real sense of the word but the mere preference of the person with enough leverage to see his preference made reality.

 

[SnoopRob]

Can't argue with any of that. The increasing professionalization of the sport rendered The Carolina Way a historical artifact. Roy did as best he could through a lot of turbulence, and now we're rounding into an entirely new era altogether. We all want Carolina to recapture something, but mostly it's success on the court and in style of play.

I would add that I think the majority of Carolina fans want a coach that will also uphold a basic sense of sportsmanship on the court, players that show solid success in the classroom, and a basic sense of being a "good citizen" (for lack of a better term) in the community. To me, that's what continuing the Carolina Way means. It wouldn't be the same as it was in Dean's time or even in Roy's time, but it would continue in a ways that are appropriate for this era of college basketball.

I think a great example is Nate Oats. He's pretty obviously shown he's a very, very good coach (at worst) and he understands the modern recruiting scene as well as anyone coaching in college today. But I'm guessing a lot of Carolina fans wouldn't want him in Chapel Hill because of off-the-court reasons, especially his reaction to the shooting of Jamea Jonae Harris by Darius Miles with 2 other Alabama players present (whose participation in the events of the day are disputed). I would posit that because Oats seemed more concerned with the performance of his team and keeping his players on the court than he did any sense of obligation to discipline said players for their involvement in that event, most Carolina fans wouldn't want him in Chapel Hill because he doesn't show any sense that he'd want to carry on a modern version of the Carolina Way.

 

[Bigs23]

What might be the response to the assertion that "the program began to decline the moment that Coach Smith resigned."

More national titles since than with?

 

[donbosco]

The real question is: does Greg Popovich have a son who wants to be a head coach in waiting at UNC?

That just might work...Unfortunately, "I learned so many different things working with Gregg Popovich. I can’t thank him enough. His son has no interest in basketball. I told him if I’m ever in a position to hire people, if he called me and said, ‘Mike, hire my son as your lead assistant,’ I would do it,” said Brown."

That's Mike Brown talking (Coach, Sacramento Kings).

Ready to Take Nepotism Blame for Gregg Popovich, Mike Brown Breaks Silence on Spurs Coach's Undisclosed Health Issue

A year after Mike Brown revealed the respect he continues to hold for Gregg Popovich, the Kings HC hopes the Spurs icon will recover soon.

www.essentiallysports.com

It might fit the bill though...

 

[donbosco]

More national titles since than with?

I wrote about how I measure this above...But here it is again: "
The program, at least to me, encompasses more than on-court performance and is much more tied to a way of seeing and being...we know it as "The Carolina Way" and it was an expression of Coach Smith's entire ethos/worldview. His book, co-authored with John Kilgo, A Coach's Life pretty much lays it out.

Of course I'm being somewhat contrarian here but i'm 66 years old, graduated from UNC the first time in 1980 and again in 1997, thus my most formative years were enveloped by Coach Smith's time at Carolina (I literally cannot remember McGuire as a UNC coach). Nothing has ever lived up to that for me. Coach Williams tried...and I love him for his own dedication to that "Carolina Way." Coach Guthridge was somewhat of a co-creator of that "Way" to be sure but he was himself shaped by Coach Smith and as was always evident, a sidekick (I do not mean that any way but positively I can assure you). I do not want to even recollect the Doherty time. He has proven subsequently that his own dedication to Coach Smith's "Carolina Way" is but superficial."

 

[UNCatTech]

Maybe, but that’s more of an issue that needs to be taken up with Bubba and Roy. In Roy’s estimation, Hubert assuredly busted his tail and earned the job.

Many also point to the lack of head coaching experience as not earning it.

 

[Bigs23]

I wrote about how I measure this above...But here it is again: "
The program, at least to me, encompasses more than on-court performance and is much more tied to a way of seeing and being...we know it as "The Carolina Way" and it was an expression of Coach Smith's entire ethos/worldview. His book, co-authored with John Kilgo, A Coach's Life pretty much lays it out.

Of course I'm being somewhat contrarian here but i'm 66 years old, graduated from UNC the first time in 1980 and again in 1997, thus my most formative years were enveloped by Coach Smith's time at Carolina (I literally cannot remember McGuire as a UNC coach). Nothing has ever lived up to that for me. Coach Williams tried...and I love him for his own dedication to that "Carolina Way." Coach Guthridge was somewhat of a co-creator of that "Way" to be sure but he was himself shaped by Coach Smith and as was always evident, a sidekick (I do not mean that any way but positively I can assure you). I do not want to even recollect the Doherty time. He has proven subsequently that his own dedication to Coach Smith's "Carolina Way" is but superficial."

I’m with you and why i believe Hubert was the right hire

The sport has changed in a way that makes the Carolina Way impossible. I think this season is proving that.

UNC will soon have to make a choice and more than likely the Carolina Way won’t be it.

I feel grateful to have lived through it’s heyday while also sad to see it end.

Where’s it’s just about winning it just doesn’t mean as much.

 

[duluoz]

My post doesn't embarrass me, but what ought to embarrass you is that you routinely misunderstand what I say by both failing to comprehend it accurately and by assigning intent to it that isn't present. You have done it a number of times on this thread to where you're essentially unintentionally creating strawmen due to a lack of basic reading comprehension.

I'm not attacking Roy's understanding of the program nor his character...but that doesn't mean that Roy gets every decision correct, either. Everyone, no matter how good they are at what they do, has blind spots and places where they misjudge certain people or situations. Whatever his reasons for preferring Hubert for the position, it's pretty clear that Roy's preference was not one that proved correct. Hubert has been shown to be thoroughly mediocre in his role as HC at Carolina and that an unnecessarily risky choice has produced mediocre results. The real failure here is that a good process to hire Roy's successor would have made such an outcome much less likely by putting in criteria for the hire that precluded someone without proven HC success. Carolina is a top 3 program (at worst) in college basketball, there is no reason that the floor for the HC position shouldn't include proven success as a HC, almost certainly at a G5-level program.

There are literally hundreds of folks we could list beyond HD that have similar "achievements" to what he had when he was hired to be the HC at Carolina. And I would guarantee you almost none of theme were considered for the Carolina HC role. Why? Because they weren't Roy's pereference. That's the very definition of a "nepo hire"...Hubert was only selected because he was the strong preference of the outgoing HC and not because his achievements as a coach made him not only a clear successor, but one that should have failed to have met the minimum criteria that would have come from a good hiring process.

Also, just to clarify another place you misunderstand, Wes Miller would have only been my preference if we absolutely insisted on hiring from within the family. My strong preference was (and is) to go outside the family to get the most accomplished coach we can who shows an appreciation for what has already come before at Carolina and desires to be the next stage in continuing both the on-court accomplishments but also off-court excellence that is the hallmark of Carolina Basketball.

The point in all of this isn't that "my guy" or "Roy's guy" or "Bubba's guy" or "duluoz's guy" should have been hired, the point is that a competent process which engaged with multiple reasonable options weighed via a rubric of criteria based on proven college basketball coaching success should have been completed and the "best available" candidate hired. And it's clear that we failed to do that because we instead moved very quickly to hire "Roy's choice" for the position.

So the only way you can say that Hubert "earned" the position is if you admit that the only criterion was "Roy wanted him". The problem you face is that such a sole criterion makes a mockery of the term "earned" by making it not about achievement in any real sense of the word but the mere preference of the person with enough leverage to see his preference made reality.

I have already explained ad nauseam how HD *earned* the position. Google the man. Your rubric for the hire is YOURS, and it is narrow-minded. It is not nearly as “objective” a scenario as you think it is. It can be just as much about fit, demeanor, tutelage, approach to the game and to players/staff/media, and even continuity, which can be a huge factor… as it is about an established head coaching record. Roy at KU was living proof.

Personally, I’ll defer to Roy Williams’ rubric over SnoopRob’s, one which involved Bubba, and Roy’s close circle of alums/family/friends who he appealed to for counsel. All of whom care deeply about the program and have insights into it that neither you nor I ever will. But to dismiss the decision as “who Roy wanted” is another insult to Roy Williams. As if he wouldn’t have spent YEARS thinking about this decision and seeking counsel over it, not just the days after announcing retirement.

And as to not attacking his character, there’s no two ways around that — nepotism is a low character move, and one which YOU have directly and plainly accused him of multiple times. Claiming he manipulated a situation to hire a nepo preference over someone more deserving is 100% attacking his character, and at the same time calling HD undeserving of something he absolutely deserved. Just because you had narrowed YOUR criteria for the hire to exclude those criteria that I detailed and Roy clearly valued in his decision, doesn’t mean that even in all your unending certainty that YOUR criteria are the right or only criteria.

And no, nothing has been “proven” about whether it was the “correct” decision. And I already detailed that too — a national runner up with K’s scalp x2, and another banner hanging if not for some untimely injuries and Puff puking and whatever else, and then a Sweet 16 exit after an ACC title and being a top team all year. It has been a roller coaster for sure, and he has underachieved in terms of wins and recruiting wins this year, and rightfully should feel conspicuous as a result. But if some of those early moral victory comebacks had been completed and been actual victories, we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. Yes they look like a mess currently, it’s discouraging as hell and reminds everyone of ‘22-23… but at times they have looked right there with the best in the country. So nothing has been “proven” the way you think it has.

So yes, Roy may have his blind spots. But quite obviously so do you. You think that what you see is all there is to be seen. Wrong.

 

[donbosco]

I’m with you and why i believe Hubert was the right hire

The sport has changed in a way that makes the Carolina Way impossible. I think this season is proving that.

UNC will soon have to make a choice and more than likely the Carolina Way won’t be it.

I feel grateful to have lived through it’s heyday while also sad to see it end.

Where’s it’s just about winning it just doesn’t mean as much.

I've got similar feelings. I worked at a Division III school for a long time and attended sports, especially basketball games, very, very often. It was a good thing...the players were legitimate students and often among the best and brightest, they were part of campus in ways other than athletics while few were superior athletes or physically imposing but rather simply hard workers who loved the games they played a great deal. I'm not putting down Division I or II players but I am raising up Division III for those reasons. They games were also competitive and often extremely well-played and coached. I miss that a lot.

Now I work at a Mid-Major and some of those things remain true about the programs and the participants though I even see the capitalization of the games creeping into things at that level as well.

 

[superrific]

?

Belichek.

 

[superrific]

Of course I'm being somewhat contrarian here but i'm 66 years old, graduated from UNC the first time in 1980 and again in 1997,

Out of curiosity, 1997 was a PhD? That seems a long time between degrees. Not judging, just wondering. Was it in the history department or Latin American studies?

 

[stankeylegjones]

Belichek.

Do you have a (credible) link to this, or are you assuming it to be true?

 

[superrific]

Do you have a (credible) link to this, or are you assuming it to be true?

neither. it was a joke.

 

[stankeylegjones]

neither. it was a joke.

And it was just a joke when you said it in the Belichick thread?

 

[superrific]

And it was just a joke when you said it in the Belichick thread?

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what I said in the Belichick thread (are you confusing me with another poster?) but I very much doubt it was meant to be taken seriously.

I have zero insider knowledge about anything related to college sports. I no longer follow the off-field (or off-court) rumors about coaches or recruits or any of that. So if I make a comment like that, it's almost always going to be mostly tongue in cheek.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Hubert is going to get at least one more season after this one to see if things can be turned around. I am worried next season might be worse, though.

Agreed. Unless we fall apart completely I definitely think he'll get another year (whether he deserves it or not is a separate question that will no doubt be debated on this board for the rest of 2025, probably). Like you said, given our failures in the transfer portal last year I am concerned that next year might be at least as bad or even worse. I do think that unless we at least make the tournament (and at this point win a game a or two) then Hubert will definitely be on the hot seat for next year. As for those who think Bubba should go ahead and fire him at the end of this year because next year will be "wasted", you may be right, but that's a different argument from what is realistically likely to happen, which is that Hubert will get one more year to turn it around.

 

[stankeylegjones]

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what I said in the Belichick thread (are you confusing me with another poster?) but I very much doubt it was meant to be taken seriously.

I have zero insider knowledge about anything related to college sports. I no longer follow the off-field (or off-court) rumors about coaches or recruits or any of that. So if I make a comment like that, it's almost always going to be mostly tongue in cheek.

Out of the blue two days ago, you wrote (in partial): "having belichek jr as coach in waiting is a good thing." That doesn't read as a joke, to me at least. And, this is a rumor that was pushed forward by many who have criticized the hire. I was wondering if your goal was to continue the propagation of this false-news, as it does look like that is your goal. If that's not your goal, maybe stop making this "joke."

 

[SnoopRob]

I have already explained ad nauseam how HD *earned* the position. Google the man. Your rubric for the hire is YOURS, and it is narrow-minded. It is not nearly as “objective” a scenario as you think it is. It can be just as much about fit, demeanor, tutelage, approach to the game and to players/staff/media, and even continuity, which can be a huge factor… as it is about an established head coaching record. Roy at KU was living proof.

Personally, I’ll defer to Roy Williams’ rubric over SnoopRob’s, one which involved Bubba and his close circle of alums/family/friends who he appealed to for counsel. All of whom care deeply about the program and have insights into it that neither you nor I ever will. But to dismiss the decision as “who Roy wanted” is another insult to Roy Williams. As if he wouldn’t have spent YEARS thinking about this decision and seeking counsel over it, not just the days after announcing retirement.

And as to not attacking his character, there’s no two ways around that — nepotism is a low character move, and one which YOU have directly and plainly accused him of multiple times. Claiming he manipulated a situation to hire a nepo preference over someone more deserving is 100% attacking his character, and at the same time calling HD undeserving of something he absolutely deserved. Just because you had narrowed YOUR criteria for the hire to exclude those criteria that I detailed and Roy clearly valued in his decision, doesn’t mean that even in all your unending certainty that YOUR criteria are the right or only criteria.

And no, nothing has been “proven” about whether it was the “correct” decision. And I already detailed that too — a national runner up with K’s scalp x2, and another banner hanging if not for some untimely injuries and Puff puking and whatever else, and then a Sweet 16 exit after an ACC title and being a top team all year. It has been a roller coaster for sure, and he has underachieved in terms of wins and recruiting wins this year, and rightfully should feel conspicuous as a result. But if some of those early moral victory comebacks had been completed and been actual victories, we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. Yes they look like a mess currently, it’s discouraging as hell and reminds everyone of ‘22-23… but at times they have looked right there with the best in the country. So nothing has been “proven” the way you think it has.

So yes, Roy may have his blind spots. But quite obviously so do you. You think that what you see is all there is to be seen. Wrong.

You've explained that your definition of "earned" the position has almost nothing to do with Hubert as a coach and is essentially based on non-coaching accomplishments and on Roy's preference. And, as I've explained, it turns the phrase "earned" into an almost nonsensical term devoid of real meaning.

Everyone should prefer Roy Williams' preference/knowledge over my preference/knowledge when it comes to college basketball, but a rubric of hiring criteria largely eliminates concerns over preferences and sets objective data as the main determining factor in hiring. But you again either fail to comprehend what I'm saying or you assign an intent to me that isn't accurate.

I'm not challenging Roy's character as I don't think he acted in a malicious or unethical way. I have no doubt that he believed (and possibly still does) that Hubert was the best choice for HC when he retired. But even people folks acting in an ethical/non-malicious way can be very wrong, as it strongly appears that Roy was. Again, you've either completely failed to comprehend what I'm saying or you're so determined to attribute a false intent to me that you've created a strawman that doesn't represent my opinions or beliefs.

Good grief, you've reached the point of absurdity by suggesting that I'm presenting some kind of "personal opinion" when I say that a reasonable main criterion for hiring a college basketball head coach is previous experience and success as a head coach of a college basketball team. It is in no way, shape, or form a controversial criterion that one of the best indicators of future success is previous success in a similar position. And, as Carolina is a top 3 CBB program, there is no reason that Carolina Basketball should not be able to hold to that basic criterion when hiring a head coach.

And you're correct that we don't yet have all "proof" we'll eventually have regarding Hubert. But the evidence we do have spread across 3.5 seasons is that Hubert is not consistently succeeding as HC at Carolina. And right now there is little evidence that Hubert has the ability to turn this season around, although I readily concede that it could happen. Of course, I'm also not suggesting that Hubert be relieved of his duties this evening and a new coach hired tomorrow. He should certainly get through the end of this season to see what he can do. But the evidence over his entire time as HC at Carolina is that he's not up to the job. This isn't about 1 game or even 1 season, this is about the totality of the results he's accomplished in 3.5 seasons. Carolina Basketball has been unranked in literally half (34 of 68) of the AP polls during Hubert's time as HC and in 3 of the 4 seasons our highest ranking has been at or near the beginning of the season before we fall down and out of the rankings. That's not indicative of a successful program and that is the objective reality of Hubert's tenure, outside the top 25 teams in the country for half of Hubert's time here. (Caveat: I admit that the AP poll is not a perfect measurement of team success, but it does stand as a good general metric that Carolina Basketball should expect to be among the best 25 teams in the nation on a consistent basis.) We've essentially been a bubble team in 2 of 3 seasons so far under Hubert and we're obviously back there currently there in year 4. Again, a bubble team in 3 of 4 years is below the standard for Carolina Basketball and, while that's an opinion, it's again a fairly basic one that should in no way, shape, or form be controversial.

You are correct that if we had won more games then Hubert would have different results and those different results would lead to different conclusions. If only Hubert had coached the team to win the NC in 2022 then this would be a different conversation. If only we hadn't lost to Alabama in the Sweet 16 last year then this would be a different conversation. If only so many of our "moral victories" had been actual victories then this would be a different discussion. But when your best defense of Hubert as a coach depends on changing the results of actual games into pretend victories and championships, you've got a very, very flimsy defense of his performance.

At this point, I'm not sure where to turn to find common ground with you. I get you've had an emotional response to my claim that Hubert didn't "earn" the HC role at Carolina or my contention that he's pretty much shown himself to not be up to the task, but you've presented very little other than "Roy knows more about college basketball than you" and "Hubert would be successful if the actual results of the games we've played were different" as evidence against my arguments. And, unfortunately, those are not terribly convincing counterclaims.

 

[superrific]

Out of the blue two days ago, you wrote (in partial): "having belichek jr as coach in waiting is a good thing." That doesn't read as a joke, to me at least. And, this is a rumor that was pushed forward by many who have criticized the hire. I was wondering if your goal was to continue the propagation of this false-news, as it does look like that is your goal. If that's not your goal, maybe stop making this "joke."

Oh. That was just an idle thought based on something I thought had been established. I was under the impression that everyone knew that was the deal. I literally don't know enough about any of this to be intending to propagate rumors or false news or anything else.

The joke here was a) whatever caused Belichick to take the job, his interest was almost manna from heaven in terms of the other options under consideration; and b) wouldn't it be sweet if something else happened along the same lines in hoops. What if UNC was employing the best coaches in modern NFL AND NBA history?