Where do we go from here?

[finesse]

What the Democrats have had a problem with, and the propaganda network of the right is to blame for this and i don’t know how to combat it, is the large disconnect from what Democrat policies and priorities are actually focused on and what people “feel” they are focused on. It’s pretty impossible to win a campaign when the gold toilet shitting racist narcissist focused on oligarchy is deemed a working class hero ignoring identity politics

The propaganda on the right isn't the major problem. It was the acquiescense of the MSM in leaving them unchallenged that was more damaging. They decided that the story was in covering what people were saying and stroking their egos rather than challenging their knowledge by covering the actual news. You could tell about two weeks before the election when they realized what they had done and started CYA operations full blast. Now they can tell us how the Democrats got it wrong.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Right, that’s why his stance is disagreeable to me: the Democratic presidential ticket actually did NOT focus on identity politics at all: never once mentioned the transgender issue, never once mentioned Harris being the first female president, never once mentioned Harris being the first Black woman president, etc. And “identity politics” certainly did not prevent Democratic candidates from doing really well across the country. I will totally buy the notion that Democrats as a whole have focused too much on identity politics over the last decade or so- I will not, however, buy the notion that it was identity politics that lost them this election, considering 1. The presidential ticket did not engage in such, 2. Democrats down ballot did very well, especially in swing states, and 3. The Republican ticket actively ran an entire campaign predicated upon their own identity politics. It’s why it’s really difficult to take Bill Maher seriously on this, because the real answer as to why the Democrats lost the election is way, way simpler: they were the incumbent party in an anti-incumbent moment worldwide. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, again, I absolutely do detest identity politics. I detest it on both sides of the ideological spectrum. But it isn’t why the Democrats lost this election 49-48.

I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Let me know what you think. I’d never heard of Smarsh prior to this. I think she did a good job of laying out how I generally feel too.

I thought it was spot on. Stewart gets it, and me, in my opinion. I agree, she lays it out exactly how I feel too, confirmation bias or not. We’d do a much better job in elections by not (appearing) to lose focus on class struggle.

 

[Paine]

I thought it was spot on. Stewart gets it, and me, in my opinion. I agree, she lays it out exactly how I feel too, confirmation bias or not. We’d do a much better job in elections by not (appearing) to lose focus on class struggle.

It seemed to click for Stewart during the interview as well. I hope enough people “get it” in the next few months so that we can move in the right direction

 

[stankeylegjones]

It seemed to click for Stewart during the interview as well. I hope enough people “get it” in the next few months so that we can move in the right direction

 

[Zoo_View]

I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.

Nope.

In a nutshell, Democrats have focused on job-training and other efforts to help steelworkers, coal miners, textile workers, and other low-skill factory or mining workers move into other jobs.

Trump and the Trumplicans lie to these workers and say, “We’re bringing back your jobs! Drill, baby, drill! We’ll unleash American energy production (ignoring that it’s at an all-time high)! Look at those Democrats wanting to let men compete in women’s sports and use women’s bathrooms! Open borders! Open borders! Open borders!”

How is that big factory in rural Wisconsin doing? Trump was at the ground-breaking.

How many thousands are employed there today?

 

[uncjhodges]

The propaganda on the right isn't the major problem. It was the acquiescense of the MSM in leaving them unchallenged that was more damaging. They decided that the story was in covering what people were saying and stroking their egos rather than challenging their knowledge by covering the actual news. You could tell about two weeks before the election when they realized what they had done and started CYA operations full blast. Now they can tell us how the Democrats got it wrong.

well i think the propaganda is the long term issue, but the msm loves adopting republican framing and you’re right, the tone shift in the last 2 weeks was drastic. like, o shit, this idiot is going to win

 

[CFordUNC]

I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.

Oh yeah, I hear you. Really appreciate the back-and-forth on this. My thing is that if the Democrats are guilty of anything as it pertains to the working class, it’s the abject failure of the party to successfully combat Republican misinformation and breakthrough the noise. “Look at those metrics” works on people like me, because I look at the metrics already and know that, historically Democratic presidential administrations are good for the economy and historically Republican president to administrations cause economic recessions. I also look at the metrics and the policy proposals of the two parties and understand that Democratic proposals are significantly better for working class and middle-class families than Republican proposals. But all of that is for naught because Democrats do a miserably poor job of actually helping low information voters to see and understand.

Republicans want to cut taxes for the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Democrats want those wealthiest individuals and corporations to pay their fair share. Republican tax cuts increase the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic tax policy proposals reduce the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic economic proposals include child tax credits for working class and middle-class families; Republican economic proposals snatch those away. Democratic economic proposals include subsidies for childcare for working class and middle-class families, universal paid maternity leave, subsidies for diapers and food for working class families, etc. The most recent Democratic presidential ticket proposed a $25,000 subsidy for down payments for qualified first time homebuyers. Democratic economic proposals include bolstered benefits for veterans, the disabled, and the elderly; republicans openly discussed slashing Social Security, Medicare, and veterans benefits. Nobody with a shred of honor, integrity, or decency can say that the Democratic Party doesn’t at least try to help working class and middle-class families, or that the Republican party is better for anyone other than the top 1%.

The magic of the GOP is its ability to convince Republican voters who have always been and will always be solidly middle-class, never to be a beneficiary of any Republican tax policy, that they are fighting for the common man. Look no further than the Republican voters we have on this very board for proof.

 

[CFordUNC]

Govern us harder, daddy!

 

[Paine]

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/sherrod-brown-democrats-00189956

 

[superrific]

lose focus on class struggle.

Using the phrase class struggle is death. There's no worse way to attract support than using that phrase. Like, don't use it ever. Nothing good can come of it.

If you want to say focus on social class, fine. Focus on working Americans? Fine, I guess. Class struggle is the original "defund the police."

 

[wmheel1287]

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/16/sherrod-brown-democrats-00189956

While I like and respect Sherrod Brown. If we collected $1 for every time he proclaimed his own virtue in that interview, we could solve the national debt.

 

[superrific]

I think his belief is somewhat in line with this. That democrats have been (seemingly) ignoring the working class’ suffering around financial crisis. And to make matters worse, it seems that their response to such cries for help is, “look at those metrics.” The jokes mixed in are for entertainment purposes.

The reason the metrics matter is that they help sort out how much of the "economic struggle" is real.

Again, you guys tiptoe around the virulent racism we just saw. It's the same racism that has characterized the white working class for a very long time, but more potent.

The problem, in a nutshell, is that Dems can't win without black voters. They have to be a visible part of the coalition. Then a considerably large % of white working class see that and think, "the Dems aren't for me." It's not because the Dems are elitist. It's because they are seen as the party of minorities. This isn't really a matter of reasonable dispute, except maybe on the margins. The sociological evidence pointing to race as the fundamental appeal of Trumpism is overwhelming. Trump courts white supremacists and the GOP base doesn't skip a beat. Why do you think that is? Because white supremacy is a feature for some, and not really a bug for the others.

Like, Sherrod Brown is still talking about NAFTA, and he thinks the concerns are economic? Ohio loses as many jobs to Alabama than to Mexico. Gee, I wonder why the former is deemed OK and the latter is a grave sin. The Dems could run on repealing the right-to-work provisions of the Taft Hartley Act. Will it make a difference? I don't know. Michigan Dems didn't get any credit for ending right to work in Michigan.

I don't want to prejudge further analysis. Maybe we will see that the economic factors did loom large. But so far, there is just not much evidence that Trump voters are responding to economic hardship as opposed to bigotry. It's only polls, and people don't always answer honestly. For one thing, exit polls ask voters to choose from a menu of choices. None of the choices are "black and brown people are screwing me over."

 

[sringwal]

It wasn't for optics.

All right! Now we can have a discussion.

1. Politics plays a role in everything the president does, almost by definition. If you took me to be saying that politics and optics were completely irrelevant, then you misunderstood. Maybe I wasn't clear about my position.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Nope.

In a nutshell, Democrats have focused on job-training and other efforts to help steelworkers, coal miners, textile workers, and other low-skill factory or mining workers move into other jobs.

Trump and the Trumplicans lie to these workers and say, “We’re bringing back your jobs! Drill, baby, drill! We’ll unleash American energy production (ignoring that it’s at an all-time high)! Look at those Democrats wanting to let men compete in women’s sports and use women’s bathrooms! Open borders! Open borders! Open borders!”

How is that big factory in rural Wisconsin doing? Trump was at the ground-breaking.

How many thousands are employed there today?

Oh, he is definitely lying to them. And, sadly, it's going to get worse.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Oh yeah, I hear you. Really appreciate the back-and-forth on this. My thing is that if the Democrats are guilty of anything as it pertains to the working class, it’s the abject failure of the party to successfully combat Republican misinformation and breakthrough the noise. “Look at those metrics” works on people like me, because I look at the metrics already and know that, historically Democratic presidential administrations are good for the economy and historically Republican president to administrations cause economic recessions. I also look at the metrics and the policy proposals of the two parties and understand that Democratic proposals are significantly better for working class and middle-class families than Republican proposals. But all of that is for naught because Democrats do a miserably poor job of actually helping low information voters to see and understand.

Republicans want to cut taxes for the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Democrats want those wealthiest individuals and corporations to pay their fair share. Republican tax cuts increase the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic tax policy proposals reduce the tax burden on the middle class. Democratic economic proposals include child tax credits for working class and middle-class families; Republican economic proposals snatch those away. Democratic economic proposals include subsidies for childcare for working class and middle-class families, universal paid maternity leave, subsidies for diapers and food for working class families, etc. The most recent Democratic presidential ticket proposed a $25,000 subsidy for down payments for qualified first time homebuyers. Democratic economic proposals include bolstered benefits for veterans, the disabled, and the elderly; republicans openly discussed slashing Social Security, Medicare, and veterans benefits. Nobody with a shred of honor, integrity, or decency can say that the Democratic Party doesn’t at least try to help working class and middle-class families, or that the Republican party is better for anyone other than the top 1%.

The magic of the GOP is its ability to convince Republican voters who have always been and will always be solidly middle-class, never to be a beneficiary of any Republican tax policy, that they are fighting for the common man. Look no further than the Republican voters we have on this very board for proof.

I agree with a lot of this. I guess I see where some are coming from. In that, given a choice between voting for what (you think) is status quo and having what you had, or voting for a shot-in-the-dark and a hope for a better economic situation, it's hard to fault someone for taking the shot. What's sad is that, due to their struggles, they can't see that Trump is only going to make it worse for them. But, when you are grinding just to make it to the bottom, you sometimes make rash, wrong, decisions. For many, voting for Kamala is a guaranteed four more years of struggles, in their mind. And that is amplified when they're told to just look at how great the economy is doing right now. They feel left out. They feel like democrats are more worried about things other than them. Maybe I'm misreading what I'm hearing and seeing, maybe John Stewart is too, along with Maher, and others. I've been wrong many times before, and will be wrong in the future, but this is what I'm feeling now.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Using the phrase class struggle is death. There's no worse way to attract support than using that phrase. Like, don't use it ever. Nothing good can come of it.

If you want to say focus on social class, fine. Focus on working Americans? Fine, I guess. Class struggle is the original "defund the police."

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[stankeylegjones]

The reason the metrics matter is that they help sort out how much of the "economic struggle" is real.

Again, you guys tiptoe around the virulent racism we just saw. It's the same racism that has characterized the white working class for a very long time, but more potent.

The problem, in a nutshell, is that Dems can't win without black voters. They have to be a visible part of the coalition. Then a considerably large % of white working class see that and think, "the Dems aren't for me." It's not because the Dems are elitist. It's because they are seen as the party of minorities. This isn't really a matter of reasonable dispute, except maybe on the margins. The sociological evidence pointing to race as the fundamental appeal of Trumpism is overwhelming. Trump courts white supremacists and the GOP base doesn't skip a beat. Why do you think that is? Because white supremacy is a feature for some, and not really a bug for the others.

Like, Sherrod Brown is still talking about NAFTA, and he thinks the concerns are economic? Ohio loses as many jobs to Alabama than to Mexico. Gee, I wonder why the former is deemed OK and the latter is a grave sin. The Dems could run on repealing the right-to-work provisions of the Taft Hartley Act. Will it make a difference? I don't know. Michigan Dems didn't get any credit for ending right to work in Michigan.

I don't want to prejudge further analysis. Maybe we will see that the economic factors did loom large. But so far, there is just not much evidence that Trump voters are responding to economic hardship as opposed to bigotry. It's only polls, and people don't always answer honestly. For one thing, exit polls ask voters to choose from a menu of choices. None of the choices are "black and brown people are screwing me over."

Note, I said "class." I'm not strictly speaking about white folks. I'm talking about BIPOC folks, white folks, everyone who's struggling right now. If you prefer, "class identity." There is a commonality that everyone who's struggled to put food on the table has, and understands - survival and dreams of not having to decide between food, heat, diapers, or rent.

 

[CFordUNC]

I agree with a lot of this. I guess I see where some are coming from. In that, given a choice between voting for what (you think) is status quo and having what you had, or voting for a shot-in-the-dark and a hope for a better economic situation, it's hard to fault someone for taking the shot. What's sad is that, due to their struggles, they can't see that Trump is only going to make it worse for them. But, when you are grinding just to make it to the bottom, you sometimes make rash, wrong, decisions. For many, voting for Kamala is a guaranteed four more years of struggles, in their mind. And that is amplified when they're told to just look at how great the economy is doing right now. They feel left out. They feel like democrats are more worried about things other than them. Maybe I'm misreading what I'm hearing and seeing, maybe John Stewart is too, along with Maher, and others. I've been wrong many times before, and will be wrong in the future, but this is what I'm feeling now.

Totally good points, for sure. I appreciate your perspective!

 

[Zoo_View]

Note, I said "class." I'm not strictly speaking about white folks. I'm talking about BIPOC folks, white folks, everyone who's struggling right now. If you prefer, "class identity." There is a commonality that everyone who's struggled to put food on the table has, and understands - survival and dreams of not having to decide between food, heat, diapers, or rent.

Pretty certain the last time working class whites formed a coalition with black Americans was in North Carolina prior to the Wilmington Coup and Massacre in 1898.

Jim Crow put an end to that nonsense.

Bussing in the ‘70’s, Reagan Democrats, and similar dog whistles to the white working class (see “open borders, open borders, open borders”) have appealed to racism and not economic class.

Let me know when working class whites align with blacks and Latinos on economic issues.