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  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
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There's no question the DOJ worked with the Fulton County and Manhattan district attorneys in the state court cases. I realize we're never going to agree on this but that is my opinion so don't interpret my views as "hating" the US Constitution or the legal system.
1. It can't be an opinion that "there is no question that DOJ worked with . . . ." You are making an assertion of empirical fact. Of course, if you believed this empirical fact, you wouldn't couch it as an opinion. You'd just assert it. The "this is my opinion" bullshit is just preemptive cover for being shown, yet again, that your assertion is false.

2. Anyway, you're right -- there's no question here. The DOJ did not "work with" either of those district attorneys for reasons that you would understand if you actually were a practicing attorney.

3. It's so funny when buffoons try to come on this board and pretend they are lawyers or money managers or have some sort of professional occupation. They don't realize how easy it is to see through them. This is what people who lack game never understand: ballers can instantly see it. You can show up to a court and claim that you once hit 10 3s in a game -- and then when people see your jumper, they know.
 
Can you help me understand the following statement from that interview?

And message-wise, the wokeness, the technocracy, the globalization stuff — that too needs to go. Democrats need to replace it with an actual plan for reindustrialization. They should go to the “sacrifice states” in the Midwest and tell voters they actually have a plan for industrial policymaking. Now they don’t have a plan. Do you know what they tell voters? “Go get a college degree and move to the Sunbelt states.” That is not a plan; that is a death verdict.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Dems had more than an "actual plan" for reindustrialization. They passed that plan into law, at least twice -- CHIPs and IRA. Moreover, in that sacrifice state of Michigan, the Dems created more industrial policymaking, including a major manufacturing plant and repealing right to work legislation. The Pubs ran against the former and ignored the latter and won. In Pennsylvania, the interstate collapsed and the government immediately responded and had the bridge rebuilt in record time. PA's union laws were strengthened, and the state Supreme Court picked off a couple of unpopular pro-business regs.

Meanwhile, I've never ever heard any Dem tell voters to "get a college degree and move south." I mean, what is he talking about there?
Based on my knowledge of his work, Frank is taking the long view. I’d wager that he’d argue CHIPS and IRA were too little, too late.
 
1. It can't be an opinion that "there is no question that DOJ worked with . . . ." You are making an assertion of empirical fact. Of course, if you believed this empirical fact, you wouldn't couch it as an opinion. You'd just assert it. The "this is my opinion" bullshit is just preemptive cover for being shown, yet again, that your assertion is false.

2. Anyway, you're right -- there's no question here. The DOJ did not "work with" either of those district attorneys for reasons that you would understand if you actually were a practicing attorney.

3. It's so funny when buffoons try to come on this board and pretend they are lawyers or money managers or have some sort of professional occupation. They don't realize how easy it is to see through them. This is what people who lack game never understand: ballers can instantly see it. You can show up to a court and claim that you once hit 10 3s in a game -- and then when people see your jumper, they know.
Fact: The number 3 official in the DOJ left his position and took a position in the Manhattan DA's office. I can infer from this that the DOJ sent one of its top lawyers to assist in the Manhattan prosecution. There's really no other logical conclusion.

Fact: There is more than ample evidence from Wade that he met with DOJ officials in Athens and DC. He even billed Fulton County for these meetings.
Fani also met with the DOJ when she was in DC. These connections are currently under investigation by the House.

So coordination between the DOJ and the state courts is more than just my unsupported opinion.
 
Said no lawyer ever.
I think he may be a lawyer. There are some unbelievably terrible lawyers out there, as I know you know. It's one of the many reasons the judicial system is struggling in the age of Trump. Alternative facts are one thing on a message board. They're a whole other thing when being proffered to courts, and even worse when they're finding their way into orders and decisions. I can say from personal experience, the court system is having real difficulty dealing with lawyers who are operating in a different factual universe, or who know they're lying but do it anyway. Two sides of the same coin.
 
Idiots. All I needed to see was the too focused on Trump to bring the country together crap. Too stupid to see through the lies from Trump and realize the threat he is to the country. It wouldn't have mattered what Harris and the Dems said. These people are just too ignorant to see reality.
These are the people that primarily get their "news" from TikTok, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. It did not matter what the Dems were saying, because that message is not reaching people on those platforms...Dems are completely out of the loop in the current media landscape. It started long ago with Rush and Fox News and now here we are...
 
These are the people that primarily get their "news" from TikTok, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. It did not matter what the Dems were saying, because that message is not reaching people on those platforms...Dems are completely out of the loop in the current media landscape. It started long ago with Rush and Fox News and now here we are...
The frustrating part of this is that there are outlets on the left that are very active in content creation on these platforms that more and more people, especially young people, get their news from. The Democratic Party has, by and large, refused to engage with these outlets.
 
Fact: The number 3 official in the DOJ left his position and took a position in the Manhattan DA's office. I can infer from this that the DOJ sent one of its top lawyers to assist in the Manhattan prosecution. There's really no other logical conclusion.

Fact: There is more than ample evidence from Wade that he met with DOJ officials in Athens and DC. He even billed Fulton County for these meetings.
Fani also met with the DOJ when she was in DC. These connections are currently under investigation by the House.

So coordination between the DOJ and the state courts is more than just my unsupported opinion.
You should review what the word "coordination" means. And your first "fact" again gives you away. Not even the most ignorant attorney would fail to understand that lawyers change jobs with some frequency and it doesn't mean anything. Especially since this attorney in question had a long history of work in NY and NYC agencies, and it was the DOJ stint that was more the outlier.
 
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I think he may be a lawyer. There are some unbelievably terrible lawyers out there, as I know you know. It's one of the many reasons the judicial system is struggling in the age of Trump. Alternative facts are one thing on a message board. They're a whole other thing when being proffered to courts, and even worse when they're finding their way into orders and decisions. I can say from personal experience, the court system is having real difficulty dealing with lawyers who are operating in a different factual universe, or who know they're lying but do it anyway. Two sides of the same coin.
All of that rings true to me, but I still don't think this cat is an attorney. There are neon blinking gaps in his knowledge and understanding.

Plus, he claimed to be a litigation attorney. That's what the poseurs always say, because it's the only type of attorney they know. And they draw on what they see on TV for reference. I mean, I suppose it's possible that all these fools just happen to cluster in an area of the law that employs maybe 20% of attorneys, but you don't find it suspicious that these questionable attorneys never work in-house at a company, or specialize in transactions or do corporate and commercial law?
 
All of that rings true to me, but I still don't think this cat is an attorney. There are neon blinking gaps in his knowledge and understanding.

Plus, he claimed to be a litigation attorney. That's what the poseurs always say, because it's the only type of attorney they know. And they draw on what they see on TV for reference. I mean, I suppose it's possible that all these fools just happen to cluster in an area of the law that employs maybe 20% of attorneys, but you don't find it suspicious that these questionable attorneys never work in-house at a company, or specialize in transactions or do corporate and commercial law?
Whatever. I'm not going to waste my time "proving" to a guy on a message board that I'm an experienced attorney who is a member of two state bars; has had an AV rating for 25+ years; no disciplinary actions against me in my career (it was insinuated that I lie to the courts); and have actual clients who pay me a significant hourly rate to represent them in federal and state courts. Are you in private practice?
 
Whatever. I'm not going to waste my time "proving" to a guy on a message board that I'm an experienced attorney who is a member of two state bars; has had an AV rating for 25+ years; no disciplinary actions against me in my career (it was insinuated that I lie to the courts); and have actual clients who pay me a significant hourly rate to represent them in federal and state courts. Are you in private practice?
To be clear, I have no idea if you lie to the courts. Your partner certainly did, though.
 
To be clear, I have no idea if you lie to the courts. Your partner certainly did, though.
He presented to the court the best evidence available at that time in representing his client. Ray will be vindicated in the long run. He has tons of support from most of the judges on the Fulton Superior Court and in the appellate courts.

I do not get involved in political/election lawsuits. In retrospect, that was a smart decision on my part.
 
Based on my knowledge of his work, Frank is taking the long view. I’d wager that he’d argue CHIPS and IRA were too little, too late.
I mean, that's fair. There are a couple of points:

1. As you know, I get quite taken aback by the accusations that Dems just "weren't listening to the working class or offering them anything" in this election. It's just not true and it's even kind of silly.

As a long-term proposition, it's more credible. People's partisanship tends to crystallize at a fairly young age and doesn't change all that much with time. So it's possible that Dems are still being dinged for things that may or may not have happened two decades ago.

That said, the exit poll data I saw showed Gen X to be the most Trump supporting demographic. If you do the math on that, the majority of Gen Xers came of age during Reagan/Bush. And that sets their partisanship, just like the people who came of age during Kennedy and early Johnson have long been more liberals and more Dem than their older or younger siblings. In this sense, we are still paying the price for the Iran hostages.

2. I confess to getting really annoyed by terms like "Brahmin left" -- used by Joan Williams in that article. The first problem is that only people who even know what the "Brahmin left" means are people in the Brahmin left. I mean, let's look at the bio of the woman complaining that Dems don't know how to talk to "ordinary people" (her phrase):

Joan C. Williams is an American feminist legal scholar, the founding director at the Center for WorkLife Law, and a distinguished professor of law at UC Law San Francisco.

I mean, if not for feminist legal scholars, how would we ever know how to communicate with anyone? She's a fucking law professor. Obviously I have no issue with that, but it is annoying for the feminist legal scholar -- whose work is far more abstruse and remote from everyday concerns than, say, the lessons taught in a deal making class -- to call me out of touch. Her bio brags that she's the 11th most cited scholar in critical theory. Oh.

Second, there's a math problem that is so frequently overlooked. Working class people are bad at managing money. They buy lottery tickets; they are disproportionately smokers; a lot of alcohol consumption; especially among men, love affairs with certain types of vehicles that are expensive to drive and maintain.

For most of the 20th century, the people banging this drum were the "center right" establishment GOP folks. That was frustrating because a) they weren't wholly wrong; but b) they used this observation as a reason not to enact popular politics. We saw that at its most vulgar with Jason Chavetz' whining about how working class people have smart phones (gasp!), but in general the line was "look, they aren't struggling; they just drink too much" -- as if working people should be expected to be monks and not want to have a good time.

Now that the roles have shifted, it remains true that working people are frequently authors (in part) of their own financial struggles. To me, unlike the GOPers mentioned above, that's not a reason to oppose sympathetic policies. Even spendthrifts ought to have health insurance. Buying lottery tickets is a poor financial decision (as is sports betting, another disproportionately working class activity), but it shouldn't consign one to poverty.

But it becomes a problem when we play these recrimination games. It's not helpful to anyone for this critique to be front-and-center (I almost never mention it, nor do others that I see) but it's also not helpful to ignore it. Living paycheck to paycheck isn't a choice for everyone who does, but I would guess that more people choose that lifestyle than have it thrust upon them. Fine. Again, government should accommodate everyone. But what are we to do when we're told, "look at how we're struggling, do something to help us," and then fall into the cycle we've been through before? We can't say "stop buying lottery tickets," but we can't fix peoples' choices to consume their whole paycheck when they get it.
 
But this is a core issue with Trump and Trumpism. He walks a very fine line of criminality but there is usually plausible deniability or people willing to clam up on his behalf, etc., etc. Should we not investigate powerful people that may have broken the law? Of course we should. Powerful law-breakers are the most dangerous kind.

But then, Trump yells "political prosecution!" at any attempt to investigate. Robert Mueller was a lifelong Republican and was appointed special counsel by a Republican acting AG that was part of Trump's administration. That's not indicative of a political prosecution. That's indicative of a prosecution that involves a politician.

So where does that leave us? Should politicians be treated differently than non-politicians? Should we not investigate or prosecute politicians? That's a very bad outcome. Should we not investigate or prosecute politicians who cry political prosecution? That's not any better. Or should we investigate politicians that it appears may have broken the law and bring charges if and when the evidence supports a conviction? I imagine prosecutors would already be very wary of bringing a weak case against a politician because of that "political prosecution!" charge. But creating a political class that is immune from consequences (other than I guess not being reelected?) seems to me to be very, very dangerous.
He does walk a fine line. There's no doubt that his lies caused J6, but when he says "peacefully", even though he likely wanted violence, he's covering his ass legally.
 
Can you help me understand the following statement from that interview?

And message-wise, the wokeness, the technocracy, the globalization stuff — that too needs to go. Democrats need to replace it with an actual plan for reindustrialization. They should go to the “sacrifice states” in the Midwest and tell voters they actually have a plan for industrial policymaking. Now they don’t have a plan. Do you know what they tell voters? “Go get a college degree and move to the Sunbelt states.” That is not a plan; that is a death verdict.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Dems had more than an "actual plan" for reindustrialization. They passed that plan into law, at least twice -- CHIPs and IRA. Moreover, in that sacrifice state of Michigan, the Dems created more industrial policymaking, including a major manufacturing plant and repealing right to work legislation. The Pubs ran against the former and ignored the latter and won. In Pennsylvania, the interstate collapsed and the government immediately responded and had the bridge rebuilt in record time. PA's union laws were strengthened, and the state Supreme Court picked off a couple of unpopular pro-business regs.

Meanwhile, I've never ever heard any Dem tell voters to "get a college degree and move south." I mean, what is he talking about there?
Why do the Democrats need a plan for this? It’s not like the Pubs had a plan. Tariffs were their plan? If people took that as a valid plan then the Dems should just make up plans too.
 
I never claim to be the perfect average man, but I’m way closer to a political moderate/swing voter than 99% of people who post on here, based on the mere fact that so few here vote for any Republicans - while I routinely split my ticket and vote based on the candidate and not simply the party.

I’ve always said I’m center-right and not dead center. But I do bring a perspective to the board that could be valuable to people if they would take some of my posts as a differing perspective that comes from a place of good faith.
So when was the last time you voted for a Democrat House, Senate or Presidential candidate? If you’ve never done that, you are not a split ticket voter.
 
Why do the Democrats need a plan for this? It’s not like the Pubs had a plan. Tariffs were their plan? If people took that as a valid plan then the Dems should just make up plans too.
In fairness, if he's talking about a long-term plan, his comment makes more sense. Paine said he was likely talking about the long-term.

And it's also true that Dems didn't have much of an industrial policy until Biden invested a lot more into it. Obama's presidency didn't really focus on that issue. It's an open question, of course, whether it would make a difference. To me Trumpism is almost fully explained by white identity politics mixed with Christian fundamentalism. I think the economic anxiety piece has always been mostly bullshit.

That said, Paine's argument is that people become more focused on their bigotry when they believe that they aren't being properly protected by the political system. It makes them angry and then they direct the anger outwards. I mean, maybe? He can't prove it; I can't prove him wrong. I think most of the anger is artificial, and the economic anxiety piece is backfilling.
 
He presented to the court the best evidence available at that time in representing his client. Ray will be vindicated in the long run. He has tons of support from most of the judges on the Fulton Superior Court and in the appellate courts.

I do not get involved in political/election lawsuits. In retrospect, that was a smart decision on my part.
Just to be clear what we're talking about here, these are the charges against your partner:

Ray Smith: Trump campaign attorney (12 charges)
  • One count: Violation of the Georgia RICO Act.
  • Three counts: Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.
  • Two counts: False statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree.
  • Two counts: Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings.
  • One count: Conspiracy to commit filing false documents.

And this is the indictment, if anyone wants to read it: https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/CRIMINAL-INDICTMENT-Trump-Fulton-County-GA.pdf

So your law partner is alleged to have been one of the main people who presented false information about the 2020 election to the Georgia legislature, and then worked with the alternate electors to coordinate their knowing violation of the law by signing a separate electoral ballot, with the intent it be used by VP Pence to count Georgia's votes for Trump rather than Biden, notwithstanding that there was no reasonable question whatsoever that Biden had won Georgia.

You think you might be just a little bit misinformed about matters of politics?
 
On the NY point, I have no idea whether what you said is accurate (lawtig02 seems to think not), and even if it is accurate, whether it is meaningful. The facts of each case are unique, and as I'm sure you know, it's a lawyer's job to attempt to distinguish bad caselaw. That sounds a lot like what you are describing.
It's not accurate. Also, he's again talking in ways that litigators just don't. For instance, nothing was pointed out by the NY appellate court, because the court has not issued an opinion. It might have been pointed out at oral argument by one of the judges, but that's not what a litigator would say.
 
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