Where do we go from here?

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Paine said:
They won’t admit it, but it’s about gender roles at the end of the day. That’s why you never hear transphobes talk about trans men.
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Interesting perspective. Thanks for posting something I never would have considered.
 
CFordUNC said:

America doesn't really have a working class: Why class politics is unlikely to succeed where identity politics failed.​

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To paraphrase a line from Reds, the one dream of the American working man is to be rich enough not to have to work. Anything short of that and they regard themselves as living in hardship and suffering some severe abrogation of their dream. Why they think Trump is the man who can make their dream come true (other than the fact he seems to have always lived such a life of non-work) I have no idea...
 
superrific said:
You have the causality wrong. Stop blaming the doctors when the inmates are running the asylum. Look at the UK. How did Brexit work out for them?

And I'm tried of this bullshit about how we are always supposed to be in touch with them. How about they get in touch with us? The relationship between liberals and conservatives is like intimate partner violence. They go on a rampage against us, and then we're supposed to go back and ask them how we can do better for them?

I have never thought that about a Trumper who is struggling. I have never failed to reach out and help. Those days are over.

Arrogance is people who don't know shit pretending that they do. The arrogance comes from them.
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I can't stand this find common ground stuff and stop being arrogant. How are you supposed to reach people that are some combo of selfish, greedy, racist, bigoted, sexist and just plain ignorant? There is no way any decent person with any intelligence at all would vote for Trump. Are the Dems supposed to cater to racists and bigots like the Pubs and MAGA do? It's like telling the Jews if they had only tried to find common ground with Hitler and the Nazis. I know it's not that extreme, but it's the same concept.
 
hedge said:
Nobody gives a fuck whether or not you get angry when Maher criticizes Trump and I never implied that you did. I'm just saying your crowing about Maher "getting it" is a one way street. He is magnitudes more critical of Trump and maga than he is of libs, but you manifestly don't think he "gets it" in that regard. Like somebody else said, you think he gets it when he agrees with you, but not when he doesn't...
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I think Bill Maher is on the money with a lot of his takes in both directions. I agree with him often even as someone with political beliefs that are quite a bit different than him, because he’s one of the few people with a big platform that I find reasonable.
 
"McBride said, "Every day Americans go to work with people who have life journeys different than their own and engage with them respectfully, I hope members of Congress can muster that same kindness."

I hope so too Sarah.
 
Carolina Fever said:
I can't stand this find common ground stuff and stop being arrogant. How are you supposed to reach people that are some combo of selfish, greedy, racist, bigoted, sexist and just plain ignorant? There is no way any decent person with any intelligence at all would vote for Trump. Are the Dems supposed to cater to racists and bigots like the Pubs and MAGA do? It's like telling the Jews if they had only tried to find common ground with Hitler and the Nazis. I know it's not that extreme, but it's the same concept.
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Ignorant? Yep in some corners for sure. But, let's remember Trump stole market share from the Democrats. How is it that Trump took some voters who obviously should be voting for the Democrat simply by saying "he was fighting for them." Or worse, there's a huge number of voters who should be voting for Democrats who stay at home.

For some voters, being offered help to get that first home just may not mean much because they know they will never get one unless its public housing.

Being offered tax credits? May not mean much for the lower income or even the younger crowd unless its refundable (and who understands what that means?). Besides, when you're talking tax credits, that's Greek anyway. You need a tax man for that.

You want to reach Hispanic voters. You better talk in depth about small business. You want to reach small town America? You better talk small business. That's all they have. When do Democrats ever talk about small business in a way that voters realize that Democrats are thinking hard about it?

If you are a struggling American with weak credit and you want to work in this country then you have a huge problem just getting a ride to a job. Your cost of transportation is at least 200% more then non-struggling Americans. Do Democrats ever talk about that?

The Democrats aren't offering help that can be understood by many at the lower end. Or talking about it in ways so that those voters know Democrats are fighting for them. But dang, they sure heard that Trump was fighting for them.
 
BlueSmoke said:
Ignorant? Yep in some corners for sure. But, let's remember Trump stole market share from the Democrats. How is it that Trump took some voters who obviously should be voting for the Democrat simply by saying "he was fighting for them." Or worse, there's a huge number of voters who should be voting for Democrats who stay at home.

For some voters, being offered help to get that first home just may not mean much because they know they will never get one unless its public housing.

Being offered tax credits? May not mean much for the lower income or even the younger crowd unless its refundable (and who understands what that means?). Besides, when you're talking tax credits, that's Greek anyway. You need a tax man for that.

You want to reach Hispanic voters. You better talk in depth about small business. You want to reach small town America? You better talk small business. That's all they have. When do Democrats ever talk about small business in a way that voters realized that Democrats are thinking hard about it?

If you are a struggling American with weak credit and you want to work in this country then you have a huge problem just getting a ride to a job. Your cost of transportation is at least 200% more then non-struggling Americans. Do Democrats ever talk about that?

The Democrats aren't offering help that can be understood by many at the lower end. Or talking about it in ways so that those voters know Democrats are fighting for them. But dang, they sure heard that Trump was fighting for them.
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And exactly what did Trump offer? What were his plans to make everything awesome for them? Anyone who thinks Trump is going to help all of those folks is a fool.
 
BlueSmoke said:
Ignorant? Yep in some corners for sure. But, let's remember Trump stole market share from the Democrats. How is it that Trump took some voters who obviously should be voting for the Democrat simply by saying "he was fighting for them." Or worse, there's a huge number of voters who should be voting for Democrats who stay at home.

For some voters, being offered help to get that first home just may not mean much because they know they will never get one unless its public housing.

Being offered tax credits? May not mean much for the lower income or even the younger crowd unless its refundable (and who understands what that means?). Besides, when you're talking tax credits, that's Greek anyway. You need a tax man for that.

You want to reach Hispanic voters. You better talk in depth about small business. You want to reach small town America? You better talk small business. That's all they have. When do Democrats ever talk about small business in a way that voters realized that Democrats are thinking hard about it?

If you are a struggling American with weak credit and you want to work in this country then you have a huge problem just getting a ride to a job. Your cost of transportation is at least 200% more then non-struggling Americans. Do Democrats ever talk about that?

The Democrats aren't offering help that can be understood by many at the lower end. Or talking about it in ways so that those voters know Democrats are fighting for them. But dang, they sure heard that Trump was fighting for them.
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So, take the trump approach and only have a concept of a plan but lie and tell them that you are fighting for them, when you are not? (Not disagreeing with you, this is just how it feels to me.)

I have no clue how trump was elected, never will understand.

But I thought that the dems did present some ideas to help small businesses.

Of course, I know a couple of republicans that didn't take the Business Covid stimulus (You know the one that MTG got almost $200K from) because of their pride. Exact quote: They don't take government handouts.

My niece made that same statement this past weekend. This is a 26 year old with no education, no job, no prospects, drug addict with a child who's father is dead. She needs all the help she can get and she's not going to take money from the government, because that's the bullshit she's heard from her stupid parents. I told her that we paid taxes to support programs to help society. That she should apply for anything that she can get to help her clean up, take care of her child, and get some kind of career training.

Of course, her parents, who are currently raising the child, are the same way, yet they didn't have a problem getting SS benefits after the father died in a car accident.
 
Carolina Fever said:
And exactly what did Trump offer? What were his plans to make everything awesome for them? Anyone who thinks Trump is going to help all of those folks is a fool.
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Democrats fix things, GOP says no. Therefore, if Democrats can't breakthrough in the messaging game then the fool (your word) will vote for "no" or Trump's hope message (he said 'fighting for you" but I kinda think it was seen as hope in some quarters.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I think Bill Maher is on the money with a lot of his takes in both directions. I agree with him often even as someone with political beliefs that are quite a bit different than him
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Yes, when he's peddling his schtick in the direction of liberals. When he focuses his much more vociferous "he gets it" insight and analysis towards repubs and, esp., Trump, I suspect you tend to tune out or find something else to captivate your attention. Like posting in here, maybe...
 
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UNCatTech said:
So, take the trump approach and only have a concept of a plan but lie and tell them that you are fighting for them, when you are not? (Not disagreeing with you, this is just how it feels to me.)

I have no clue how trump was elected, never will understand.

But I thought that the dems did present some ideas to help small businesses.

Of course, I know a couple of republicans that didn't take the Business Covid stimulus (You know the one that MTG got almost $200K from) because of their pride. Exact quote: They don't take government handouts.

My niece made that same statement this past weekend. This is a 26 year old with no education, no job, no prospects, drug addict with a child who's father is dead. She needs all the help she can get and she's not going to take money from the government, because that's the bullshit she's heard from her stupid parents. I told her that we paid taxes to support programs to help society. That she should apply for anything that she can get to help her clean up, take care of her child, and get some kind of career training.

Of course, her parents, who are currently raising the child, are the same way, yet they didn't have a problem getting SS benefits after the father died in a car accident.
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I am so sorry for your niece. That's a tough one.

To me, political messaging is similar to marketing a product. I will grant, you would have thought that enough voters would have seen thru Trump's lies. Which further indicates to me that Democrats have a real branding issue...........or rather their brand has eroded among some voters.

Get the messaging, marketing, and or brand fixed and their lies won't matter. Or their right wing media won't matter. At least I hope so.
 
hedge said:
Yes, when he's peddling his schtick in the direction of liberals. When he focuses his much more vociferous "he gets it" attitude towards repubs and, esp., Trump, I suspect you tend to tune out or find something else to captivate your attention. Like posting in here, maybe...
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I’ve been a fan of Maher since the 1990s. Even when I strongly disagree with him on many issues, I enjoy hearing from him since he presents his arguments in an interesting and entertaining way. I give him a listen because I consider him to be a fair arbiter of issues. Plus, his show is almost the only venue where conflicting issues can be discussed cordially and rationally.
 
Ramrouser said:
I’ve been a fan of Maher since the 1990s. Even when I strongly disagree with him on many issues, I enjoy hearing from him since he presents his arguments in an interesting and entertaining way. I give him a listen because I consider him to be a fair arbiter of issues. Plus, his show is almost the only venue where conflicting issues can be discussed cordially and rationally.
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Exactly. Not sure how many different ways I can say the same thing to hedge: that I like Maher and his style, no matter which way he’s arguing at that moment.
 
Yeah, I do too. I think the difference b/w us is that I actually take things Maher says about libs to heart. I think the woke stuff is a loser politically, regardless of how I feel about it intellectually and morally. Quite a few of his criticisms of the left resonate with me. But it's pretty obvious that his far more vociferous criticisms of maga and Trump have not caused y'all to reconsider your opinion of it or him. Granted, you've given lip service to not "liking" Trump's style and language, blah blah blah, but Maher's substantive and scathing criticisms of Trump fall on deaf ears when you're watching. Your antennae quiver at the first hint of criticism of liberals in any regard, but when he turns to Trump, you tune out. Oh sure, you hear what he's saying, you may even nod and smirk, but it doesn't make any substantive impression on you. Again, you "like" Maher and think he "gets it" when he's criticizing the left. Everything else you just gloss over...
 
Carolina Fever said:
I can't stand this find common ground stuff and stop being arrogant. How are you supposed to reach people that are some combo of selfish, greedy, racist, bigoted, sexist and just plain ignorant? There is no way any decent person with any intelligence at all would vote for Trump. Are the Dems supposed to cater to racists and bigots like the Pubs and MAGA do? It's like telling the Jews if they had only tried to find common ground with Hitler and the Nazis. I know it's not that extreme, but it's the same concept.
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I'm also sick of it partly for the reasons you mentioned, but also for another reason: it's just so damned hypocritical. Liberals are told over and over that they need to "humble" themselves around conservatives, respect them at all times, listen quietly to what they have to say (and accept it as true), and not be so snooty or snobby or whatever. Yet conservatives are at least as arrogant, condescending, and self-righteous as liberals (and they're often in-your-face to boot), but not once since 2016 have I read that conservatives need to listen to liberals, respect their views, or be "humble" around them. Respect is supposed to be a two-way street, but apparently not when it comes to Trumpers. They can yell and call liberals names and threaten them and pretty much act like assholes around them all they want, but if liberals even mildly respond in kind (such as Biden's garbage remark, which wasn't even aimed at all Trumpers) they lose their shit and meltdown and call liberals arrogant and elitist and blahblahblah. It's gotten really, really old.
 
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