Why 'America First' Is A Lie

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CFordUNC said:
I thought this might be worthy of a separate thread topic, but absolutely understand if folks think this should be merged with an existing thread. I read this piece in the Bulwark over lunch a little while ago and it really struck me. I wanted to share it here for discussion.

It really resonated with me, as I read this piece, and as I considered some of the conversations we've been having on this board lately with a few of our Trump-supporting friends, how much the general American public simply does not comprehend how our current actions are threatening to upend 8 decades of American-led, unprecedented, unfathomable prosperity across the globe. So many people simply view things in an un-nuanced "dollars and cents" manner without considering that the dollars spent over the last 80 years on Pax Americana have resulted in *America* becoming the greatest economical, cultural, and influential entity that has ever existed on the planet for mere pennies on the dollar compared to the ROI.

My primary hope in posting this is to give some of our board Trump supporters some food for thought. This piece, as far as I know, isn't behind a paywall and it's easily one of the best pieces I've ever read on the Bulwark.

www.thebulwark.com

‘America First’ Is a Lie

America has *always* been about putting America first. Trump’s “America First” movement is about something else entirely.
www.thebulwark.com www.thebulwark.com
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What about Trump first?
 
Shenanigans said:
I appreciate you saying all this now. But it's too little, too late. Like UNC basketball, I wanted Hubert to press nonstop this season to exploit our guard advantages. Now we have to improbably beat dook, or get lucky in the ACC tournament just to make the tourney.

Without you ever addressing your conservative bias as to why we are currently in this fucking shithole, it is beyond disingenuous.

Trump represents who you were. Address that, and convince some rednecks, please, to help themselves.
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You seem like a fucking asshole to put it mildly.

To be more direct, get fucked.

No apologies for the lack of decorum either mods.
 
wmheel1287 said:
You seem like a fucking asshole to put it mildly.

To be more direct, get fucked.

No apologies for the lack of decorum either mods.
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I agree, I'm an asshole. Fuck me.

The end of democracy is going to fucking suck a whole lot more than interacting with me.

Take your hatred of me, tell some rubes to get fucked, then we'll be well on our way.

Giddy up
 
I don't see that Trump/Vance are throwing away 80 years of US foreign policy. The US is and will remain the unquestioned leader of the Free World. He just doesn't play by the standard diplomatic rules AND he wants to pressure the EU countries to take the lead in financing the Ukrainians both pre and post settlement.

Trump is playing mediator and wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table so he's unwilling to publicly criticize Putin as the Dems and media want him to do. Trump must position himself in these negotiations as the honest broker. Russia LOST this war - badly. Trump needs to allow Putin to claim some level of victory by keeping the Russian speaking Donbas. Trump as part of these negotiations, actually offered Zelensky a security guarantee by his joint mineral rights venture which will place US contractors on Ukrainian soil. China has a 70% monopoly on these much needed minerals so this deal increases our position with respect to China. It also brings US and Russia back together from enemies to friendimies. Ukraine, in the end, will preserve most of its country; make money on the minerals deal; likely have the US and the world assist in rebuilding the Country; have express security guarantees from the EU and a de facto guarantee from the US. Trump is really playing 4D Chess.

Zelensky just needs to get realistic about the outcome of a settlement. It's a hard pill for him to swallow because he could have had a "deal" from Russia a week or so after the invasion (and kept his non Crimean territories) if he would have pledged neutrality and agreed not to join NATO. That's what Trump keeps referring to when he says Zelensky "caused" the invasion (Trump uses imprecise language which drives Dems/media crazy). Zelensky should have never listened to Rice, Blinkin, Vindman, Murphy and the other Obama - ites and insulted/lectured the US officials in the Oval Office. He had ONE JOB to do - smile, flatter the Boss, sign the deal, have lunch and leave.

Britain and France and the "Willing" can not negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine without the US. They are not strong enough to impose and secure a deal with Russia without the US. Conversely, they can't supply Ukraine with the weaponry the US is supplying Ukraine, including the anti defense systems we posses. Europe's weakness will now be exposed. Ukraine, at Europe's urging, will come crawling back to Trump (in a weaker position) and the process will move forward.

As I've mentioned before, Trump's negotiation is effective but messy in real time. Order will be restored in due time. The US's role in the world will be even greater.
 
Ramrouser said:
I don't see that Trump/Vance are throwing away 80 years of US foreign policy. The US is and will remain the unquestioned leader of the Free World. He just doesn't play by the standard diplomatic rules AND he wants to pressure the EU countries to take the lead in financing the Ukrainians both pre and post settlement.

Trump is playing mediator and wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table so he's unwilling to publicly criticize Putin as the Dems and media want him to do. Trump must position himself in these negotiations as the honest broker. Russia LOST this war - badly. Trump needs to allow Putin to claim some level of victory by keeping the Russian speaking Donbas. Trump as part of these negotiations, actually offered Zelensky a security guarantee by his joint mineral rights venture which will place US contractors on Ukrainian soil. China has a 70% monopoly on these much needed minerals so this deal increases our position with respect to China. It also brings US and Russia back together from enemies to friendimies. Ukraine, in the end, will preserve most of its country; make money on the minerals deal; likely have the US and the world assist in rebuilding the Country; have express security guarantees from the EU and a de facto guarantee from the US. Trump is really playing 4D Chess.

Zelensky just needs to get realistic about the outcome of a settlement. It's a hard pill for him to swallow because he could have had a "deal" from Russia a week or so after the invasion (and kept his non Crimean territories) if he would have pledged neutrality and agreed not to join NATO. That's what Trump keeps referring to when he says Zelensky "caused" the invasion (Trump uses imprecise language which drives Dems/media crazy). Zelensky should have never listened to Rice, Blinkin, Vindman, Murphy and the other Obama - ites and insulted/lectured the US officials in the Oval Office. He had ONE JOB to do - smile, flatter the Boss, sign the deal, have lunch and leave.

Britain and France and the "Willing" can not negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine without the US. They are not strong enough to impose and secure a deal with Russia without the US. Conversely, they can't supply Ukraine with the weaponry the US is supplying Ukraine, including the anti defense systems we posses. Europe's weakness will now be exposed. Ukraine, at Europe's urging, will come crawling back to Trump (in a weaker position) and the process will move forward.

As I've mentioned before, Trump's negotiation is effective but messy in real time. Order will be restored in due time. The US's role in the world will be even greater.
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It's frienemies, you weirdo
 
Ramrouser said:
I don't see that Trump/Vance are throwing away 80 years of US foreign policy. The US is and will remain the unquestioned leader of the Free World. He just doesn't play by the standard diplomatic rules AND he wants to pressure the EU countries to take the lead in financing the Ukrainians both pre and post settlement.

Trump is playing mediator and wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table so he's unwilling to publicly criticize Putin as the Dems and media want him to do. Trump must position himself in these negotiations as the honest broker. Russia LOST this war - badly. Trump needs to allow Putin to claim some level of victory by keeping the Russian speaking Donbas. Trump as part of these negotiations, actually offered Zelensky a security guarantee by his joint mineral rights venture which will place US contractors on Ukrainian soil. China has a 70% monopoly on these much needed minerals so this deal increases our position with respect to China. It also brings US and Russia back together from enemies to friendimies. Ukraine, in the end, will preserve most of its country; make money on the minerals deal; likely have the US and the world assist in rebuilding the Country; have express security guarantees from the EU and a de facto guarantee from the US. Trump is really playing 4D Chess.

Zelensky just needs to get realistic about the outcome of a settlement. It's a hard pill for him to swallow because he could have had a "deal" from Russia a week or so after the invasion (and kept his non Crimean territories) if he would have pledged neutrality and agreed not to join NATO. That's what Trump keeps referring to when he says Zelensky "caused" the invasion (Trump uses imprecise language which drives Dems/media crazy). Zelensky should have never listened to Rice, Blinkin, Vindman, Murphy and the other Obama - ites and insulted/lectured the US officials in the Oval Office. He had ONE JOB to do - smile, flatter the Boss, sign the deal, have lunch and leave.

Britain and France and the "Willing" can not negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine without the US. They are not strong enough to impose and secure a deal with Russia without the US. Conversely, they can't supply Ukraine with the weaponry the US is supplying Ukraine, including the anti defense systems we posses. Europe's weakness will now be exposed. Ukraine, at Europe's urging, will come crawling back to Trump (in a weaker position) and the process will move forward.

As I've mentioned before, Trump's negotiation is effective but messy in real time. Order will be restored in due time. The US's role in the world will be even greater.
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1. It's not up to the US whether we are the leader of the Free World. That decision will be made by the other countries, who will either treat the US as a leader or not. What have you seen in the last month to indicate that other countries are going to look to us for anything?

2. Trump is not playing mediator. The mediator doesn't exclude one side from the negotiations. The mediator doesn't try to extract as much wealth from one side as possible, while helping the other side regain frozen assets and lift sanctions.

3. Mineral rights are not a security guarantee and the fact that you've bought that nonsense is just so pathetic. US contractors are not fucking military. Also, they are unlikely to be American. Also, there's no guarantee that there is even enough stuff there to make a mining or drilling project feasible, in which case it would provide no security.

But I can see why you work as a shitty family lawyer. You are incredibly bad at negotiations and incredibly naive.

4. At no point did Russia offer Ukraine a peace deal, let alone a week after the invasion. A week after the invasion, the Russian military was headed straight for Kiev. This was not a "let's just take a bit of territory in the east," but rather a "we are going to conquer the whole country." Not only can you infer that from the actual military movements, you can also infer that from what the Russians were actually saying.

5. The Europeans are not nearly as weak as you seem to think.
 
Ramrouser said:
I don't see that Trump/Vance are throwing away 80 years of US foreign policy. The US is and will remain the unquestioned leader of the Free World. He just doesn't play by the standard diplomatic rules AND he wants to pressure the EU countries to take the lead in financing the Ukrainians both pre and post settlement.

Trump is playing mediator and wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table so he's unwilling to publicly criticize Putin as the Dems and media want him to do. Trump must position himself in these negotiations as the honest broker. Russia LOST this war - badly. Trump needs to allow Putin to claim some level of victory by keeping the Russian speaking Donbas. Trump as part of these negotiations, actually offered Zelensky a security guarantee by his joint mineral rights venture which will place US contractors on Ukrainian soil. China has a 70% monopoly on these much needed minerals so this deal increases our position with respect to China. It also brings US and Russia back together from enemies to friendimies. Ukraine, in the end, will preserve most of its country; make money on the minerals deal; likely have the US and the world assist in rebuilding the Country; have express security guarantees from the EU and a de facto guarantee from the US. Trump is really playing 4D Chess.

Zelensky just needs to get realistic about the outcome of a settlement. It's a hard pill for him to swallow because he could have had a "deal" from Russia a week or so after the invasion (and kept his non Crimean territories) if he would have pledged neutrality and agreed not to join NATO. That's what Trump keeps referring to when he says Zelensky "caused" the invasion (Trump uses imprecise language which drives Dems/media crazy). Zelensky should have never listened to Rice, Blinkin, Vindman, Murphy and the other Obama - ites and insulted/lectured the US officials in the Oval Office. He had ONE JOB to do - smile, flatter the Boss, sign the deal, have lunch and leave.

Britain and France and the "Willing" can not negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine without the US. They are not strong enough to impose and secure a deal with Russia without the US. Conversely, they can't supply Ukraine with the weaponry the US is supplying Ukraine, including the anti defense systems we posses. Europe's weakness will now be exposed. Ukraine, at Europe's urging, will come crawling back to Trump (in a weaker position) and the process will move forward.

As I've mentioned before, Trump's negotiation is effective but messy in real time. Order will be restored in due time. The US's role in the world will be even greater.
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His negotiations are not effective.

You must actually be the ambulance chaser others have pegged you as. A real lawyer would laugh at trumps "negotiating" skills.

Representing himself he would negotiate a 1 year probation into 10 years behind bars.
 
Shenanigans said:
I'm not trying to change minds, I am guilting people purposefully into realizing they are the reason their lives, their friends and family, and everyone they know is fucked. That's all
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And you are doing a great job but your effort seems as lacking as a Hubert Davis defense at the start of the 2nd half.
 
4thgenheel said:
a lot of dyed in the wool maga folk are not salvageable but plenty of the people who voted for him in the last election are not hardcore maga.

many of those people's minds can and will be changed but your approach will usually not be helpful in that endeavor.
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I disagree and think Shannon’s approach will win back independent voters and the conservatives dems who voted for trump. What’s not to like about it?
 
Callatoroy said:
And you are doing a great job but your effort seems as lacking as a Hubert Davis defense at the start of the 2nd half.
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Have fun being stupid forever. I am sure many in your family hate you, want nothing to do with you, and considering who you are, no one blames them.

I will interact with you though. And trigger you.

Since when are you such a snowflake ❄️ that you are now deleting your own posts? Say what's on your mind you stupid rube.

Nothing the dems do will affect the midterms. I have already explained that they will be fully rigged. Trump will stay in power in 2028 so he can stay out of jail for his many crimes. He's not going to jeopardize this by allowing a Dem house and senate. He already said as much by guaranteeing a big conservative midterm win. Elon will continue to steal money from room temp IQ rednecks, and they will thank him for it, while screaming "liberals are the devil." This is happening.

I will at least annoy you in the process for your abundant stupidity. And it is abundant.
 
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rodoheel said:
I actually think spending money so kids in countries with terrorism problems can watch Sesame Street is a pretty good use of money for the expansion of American cultural ("soft") power in theory. What makes you disagree?

I think we need a more forthright discussion of our debt/financial situation but the relative peanuts we spend (well, spent) on foreign aid should have very little place in that discussion. We all know where material spending cuts have to come from to make a dent in the budget, and it isn't foreign aid. And in any event, any conversation about addressing the debt/deficit has to include increasing revenues, which largely will have to come from tax increases for the top few percent (because (1) that's where most of the income is, and (2) the lower classes largely can't afford a tax increase). We are long overdue to return the top marginal rates to the 40-45% range, and candidly I think we need at least one more marginal tax bracket on the top end, probably two.
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I don't disagree that the fundamentalist right of Islam, children and adults, could stand to learn a bit about kindness and accepting differences without blowing each other up, but that is a nice to have, not a need to have.

No, not one of these nice-to-haves is a big amount, but when you have hundreds, if not thousands, they add up.

Our neighbors, since we have known them, have had financial difficulties. They are Mormon, which often means that the wife does not work. That is the case with them. In nearly 12 years, she has never had a job, despite the fact that their youngest child just turned 16 and clearly doesn't need a stay-at-home mom.

However, when some number of the kids were younger, we would constantly see all of them with large fountain drinks from a nearby gas station. In fact, my wife ended up next to their mom at the same gas station, and she was unable to pay for her drink. One $1.50 drink.

Was any one of the drinks she bought herself or kids a financial deal breaker? Of course not. Is it dumb and irresponsible to waste money on little things when you are constantly struggling financially? Yes.
 
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UNCatTech said:
How is chastising those who have changed helping anything.

Go stand in public holding a sign with your position, it will probably work as well as your approach here.
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I'm not chastising, I'm motivating. I need good folks like you and CFord to understand the threat. It's massive, and it's very close.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't disagree that the fundamentalist right of Islam, children and adults, could stand to learn a bit about kindness and accepting differences without blowing each other up, but that is a nice to have, not a need to have.

No, not one of these nice-to-haves is a big amount, but when you have hundreds, if not thousands, they add up.

Our neighbors, since we have known them, have had financial difficulties. They are Mormon, which often means that the wife does not work. That is the case with them. In nearly 12 years, she has never had a job, despite the fact that their youngest child just turned 16 and clearly doesn't need a stay-at-home mom.

However, when some number of the kids were younger, we would constantly see all of them with large fountain drinks from a nearby gas station. In fact, my wife ended up next to their mom at the same gas station, and she was unable to pay for her drink. One $1.50 drink.

Was any one of the drinks she bought herself or kids a financial deal breaker? Of course not. Is it dumb and irresponsible to waste money on little things when you are constantly struggling financially? Yes.
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I'm not even sure you are an actual person.

Yada yada fountain drinks, yada yada irresponsible Mormon.

If you can't comprehend the shit you have helped cause, stfu.

Your analysis of life events is retarded, at best.
 
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