Welcome to our community

Be apart of something great, join today!

Register Log in

Why Did Republicans Abandon Conservatism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CFordUNC
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 292
  • Views: 6K
  • Politics 
ZenMode said:
You are getting very specific while I am talking in generalities.

Since You brought up discrimination, let's talk about that as a general idea. I support a business's right to hire whoever they want to hire. If they run a gym that caters only to females, and they want to hire a 100% female staff, I'm fine with that. If they own a Panda Express, and want to hire only people who would stereotypically work at a Panda Express, go for it. If you want to have an all white, Indian, Asian or black staff. That's fine. If you currently have an all white staff and decide that DEI is the way to go, fire your lowest performing whites and replace them with black people... That's fine with me.

I can say that I support all of that and still say that I think racists are misguided morons.

However, if you are a liberal, there's a very high probability that I would be labeled a racist simply for supporting the right of businesses to hire whoever they want.
Click to expand...
It wouldn’t necessarily make you a racist but it would make you someone who thinks discrimination should be legal. Would you be ok with your local hotels and restaurants bringing back whites- only water fountains?
 
Ramrouser said:
The Reagan era conservatism gave out of gas in the 2nd term of the Bush Administration. It was a good run with the small government/libertarians/strong national defense/evangelical alliance lasting approximately 30 years (1975-2005). The Press in the early to mid 2000s transitioned from being simply biased towards the Dems to being Democratic activists - opening rooting for the Dems and vocally opposing the Rs. This caused the conservatives to retreat to Fox News and Rush and talk radio. Then, the Great Recession ushered in the Obama "we're all socialists" era.

Obama turned the party hard left, especially in his 2nd term. He was worshiped by the boot licking press. The reaction on the right was the Tea Party - which was a populist movement emphasizing the debt Obama was running up. The two R Presidential candidates of this era - McCain and Romney - simply wouldn't fight back and respond to the activist Press and increasingly leftist Dems - choosing to play by the old rules. The activists gained power in the Dem party and were pushing the boundaries on the cultural front (what we now call "woke").

Then comes the 2016 primary. Most of the candidates were pretty normal conservatives. Early on, I aligned myself with Rubio thinking the country needed some new conservative blood. Plus, he was marginally associated with the Tea Party. Trump comes in like a bull dozer and does his Trump thing. I didn't initially support him because I didn't think there was anyway in Hell he could win a general election. As time went by, many if not most traditional conservatives supported him because "at least he fought back" with the Press and the Dems unlike McCain and Romney. The unrelenting attacks by the left only caused more Rs to line up behind him as "their guy." Trump appealed to blue collar types the way Romney wing of the R party never could.

As everyone notes, Trump is not a conservative. The Rs have essentially leased Trump to disrupt and take on the Dems - who were growing more left and more woke during and after his term. A lot of Trump support from traditional Rs is "I can't stand those nut cases" and Trump's at least taking them on. Plus, Trump does have some conservative views:

Law and order and support for the police.
He's now embracing a smaller leaner government with DOGE - which he didn't support during his first term.
Tough on China.
Pro Life
Strong borders
Supporter of religious institutions
Strong ally of Israel
Anti - woke madness
Equal - not equitable - opportunities for all

Tariffs and foreign policy is where he strongly veers from the Reagan era. But, on these issues, he has a point. Free trade is great but not always - especially when other countries to not reciprocate. Strong national defense is fine until it evolves into Neocon and endless war foreign policy.

All the crazy stuff about Trump conservatives don't always like, but generally accept, is simply part of the package. We don't see Trump as a "threat to democracy" or that we're headed to a dictatorship. After he completes this glorious term, he'll be gone and parts of the MAGA movement will remain but there won't be another Trump. He's a unicorn. No other politician can get away with what he does so they won't try. Some of the hard core MAGA will stop supporting Rs and return to not voting.

In short, I really haven't changed my conservative principles, I'm just willing to allow Trump to do his thing as the Disrupter in Chief since the Dems went so far crazy and his methods often get things done.

Remember, you asked my opinion.
Click to expand...
This is a great post honestly. I started to type up a response but I don't have much to add to this.
 
Zen is a libertarian, and his ideology is more important than any negative effects it may generate. Libertarianism is the ultimate selfishness and arrogance, so people being hurt is subordinate to libertarian ideological “generalities.”
 
farce© said:
Zen is a libertarian, and his ideology is more important than any negative effects it may generate. Libertarianism is the ultimate selfishness and arrogance, so people being hurt is subordinate to libertarian ideological “generalities.”
Click to expand...
"Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand."
 
Ramrouser said:
The Reagan era conservatism gave out of gas in the 2nd term of the Bush Administration. It was a good run with the small government/libertarians/strong national defense/evangelical alliance lasting approximately 30 years (1975-2005). The Press in the early to mid 2000s transitioned from being simply biased towards the Dems to being Democratic activists - opening rooting for the Dems and vocally opposing the Rs. This caused the conservatives to retreat to Fox News and Rush and talk radio. Then, the Great Recession ushered in the Obama "we're all socialists" era.

Obama turned the party hard left, especially in his 2nd term. He was worshiped by the boot licking press. The reaction on the right was the Tea Party - which was a populist movement emphasizing the debt Obama was running up. The two R Presidential candidates of this era - McCain and Romney - simply wouldn't fight back and respond to the activist Press and increasingly leftist Dems - choosing to play by the old rules. The activists gained power in the Dem party and were pushing the boundaries on the cultural front (what we now call "woke").

Then comes the 2016 primary. Most of the candidates were pretty normal conservatives. Early on, I aligned myself with Rubio thinking the country needed some new conservative blood. Plus, he was marginally associated with the Tea Party. Trump comes in like a bull dozer and does his Trump thing. I didn't initially support him because I didn't think there was anyway in Hell he could win a general election. As time went by, many if not most traditional conservatives supported him because "at least he fought back" with the Press and the Dems unlike McCain and Romney. The unrelenting attacks by the left only caused more Rs to line up behind him as "their guy." Trump appealed to blue collar types the way Romney wing of the R party never could.

As everyone notes, Trump is not a conservative. The Rs have essentially leased Trump to disrupt and take on the Dems - who were growing more left and more woke during and after his term. A lot of Trump support from traditional Rs is "I can't stand those nut cases" and Trump's at least taking them on. Plus, Trump does have some conservative views:

Law and order and support for the police.
He's now embracing a smaller leaner government with DOGE - which he didn't support during his first term.
Tough on China.
Pro Life
Strong borders
Supporter of religious institutions
Strong ally of Israel
Anti - woke madness
Equal - not equitable - opportunities for all

Tariffs and foreign policy is where he strongly veers from the Reagan era. But, on these issues, he has a point. Free trade is great but not always - especially when other countries to not reciprocate. Strong national defense is fine until it evolves into Neocon and endless war foreign policy.

All the crazy stuff about Trump conservatives don't always like, but generally accept, is simply part of the package. We don't see Trump as a "threat to democracy" or that we're headed to a dictatorship. After he completes this glorious term, he'll be gone and parts of the MAGA movement will remain but there won't be another Trump. He's a unicorn. No other politician can get away with what he does so they won't try. Some of the hard core MAGA will stop supporting Rs and return to not voting.

In short, I really haven't changed my conservative principles, I'm just willing to allow Trump to do his thing as the Disrupter in Chief since the Dems went so far crazy and his methods often get things done.

Remember, you asked my opinion.
Click to expand...
I was reading through this whole thread again this evening and came across your post again, which, as I mentioned earlier I really appreciated your taking the time to share all of that insight and perspective. I felt like I learned some new stuff, and even if I agreed with some parts and didn't agree with others, I enjoyed it all the same.

Rereading it this evening, I wanted to ask you a follow-up question. You mentioned initially not liking Donald Trump but ultimately voting for him in 2016- which, as I may have shared with you previously, I did the exact same thing. I wanted to hear more about what exactly changed your mind about Trump-whether it was Trump-specific or whether it was more correlated to your dislike of what you perceived to be a hostile/combative anti-Republican media and/or a Democratic Party that was supporting cultural topics/issues with which you personally disagree?

The reason I ask is because you said that you hadn't changed your conservative principles, but you'd acknowledged earlier that Trump isn't even conservative. So I guess my question is, what specifically about Trump or Trumpism appeals to you as a conservative, when you acknowledge that he isn't conservative and by extension many of his policies are actually antithetical to Reaganism/classical conservatism. No right or wrong answer- I'm genuinely curious and wanting to learn another perspective. I'm interested as someone who still adheres to many of the tenets of classical American conservatism, but who cannot see myself ever voting Republican again until or unless pretty much all vestiges of Trumpism/MAGA are eliminated.
 
farce© said:
I’m more interested in this “hard left turn” Obama made in his second term. I don’t remember that at all.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was one of the parts with which I disagreed, as well. I was deep into my "hardcore Republican anti-Obama" era at the time and even I don't recall feeling like Obama made a hard leftward turn in either of his terms, but especially not the second term after the bloodbath in the 2010 midterms.

I also don't agree with the part about the press supposedly being "Democratic activists.' I've never had that opinion even when I was Republican. More favorable towards Democrats and liberals? Sure. But activists? Never struck me that way, and I grew up on a steady diet of Rush, Coulter, Beck, and Hannity.

But overall, I do want to commend ramrouser because overall that's about as reasonable of a post as we've had from any conservative on this board in ages. We don't get those anymore. It was insightful, and even if it was overall disagreeable (IMO of course), it was civil.
 
rodoheel said:
It wouldn’t necessarily make you a racist but it would make you someone who thinks discrimination should be legal. Would you be ok with your local hotels and restaurants bringing back whites- only water fountains?
Click to expand...
I do think discrimination, under certain conditions, should be legal. Obviously the government can't discriminate. Utility companies can't discriminate. I do think that if you advertise your business as white only or black only, in the same way that female-only gyms are advertised, that should be legal
 
CFordUNC said:
But overall, I do want to commend ramrouser because overall that's about as reasonable of a post as we've had from any conservative on this board in ages. We don't get those anymore. It was insightful, and even if it was overall disagreeable (IMO of course), it was civil.
Click to expand...
By reasonable, do you mean "unadulterated bullshit"? Because virtually every empirical claim he made is wrong, and demonstrably so. The part about conservatives being forced to turn to Fox News and Rush is especially comical. Rush was a 90s phenomenon. By the early 2000s, his ratings were down in part because he was a drug addict and a criminal. The press was heavily biased in favor of Bush in 00 and 04 -- again, not something in dispute as it's been analyzed to death. The swift boating of John Kerry was, at the time, a new low in American politics, a smear campaign based on pure lies with no basis in fact.
 
4thgenheel said:
www.scientificamerican.com

Conservative and Liberal Brains Might Have Some Real Differences

Scanners try to watch the red-blue divide play out underneath the skull
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com
Click to expand...
This is a very important point that doesn't get enough press at all. Let me expand by saying that those brain scans are mostly confirming other work that has been done in psychology about the authoritarian personality. Basically, conservatives are the way they are -- not all of them, of course -- because they have personality traits emphasizing submission to authority and hostility to outgroups. There are a number of ways this can be measured; social dominance orientation is one way of thinking about it, and (for instance) the dark triad is another. But the psychological research is entirely clear about the predictors of right-wing politics and trumpism in particular (in America).

Authoritarian personality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Zenmode uses the term “Zen” in his handle exactly the same way we call a man 6’5” and 350lbs “Tiny”.
It’s an exact opposite. Zenmode is the farthest thing from “Zen” as can be. There is nothing Zen-like there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top