2024 Pre-Election Political Polls | POLL - Trump would have had 7 point lead over Biden

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Turd Ferguson said:
It's ridiculous that the race is close at all. The racists and bigots really want to get back to the 1950s or sooner at any cost.
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It took me quite awhile to reconcile that a considerable percentage of our population could support a man like trump. Some part of me just couldn’t process it. One day I realized it was true. Since that day I’ve felt a bit differently about these United States of ours.
 
Centerpiece said:
Try 2008. That’s when all kinds of folks started going bat shit crazy. Tea Party 2010, Birtherism, etc.

Made Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh look like Laurel and Hardy.

No, the shits been hitting the fan long before 2016
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Agreed - I think much of it started in the 90s with the Clintons. Republicans then hated the Clintons at least as much as they hated the Obamas, and maybe more. Rush Limbaugh was at his height and spewing his crap daily - it was a kind of prototype of what we'd see soon after on Fox and other talk radio. And Gingrich in Congress was upsetting all the traditional norms, and the huge GOP sweep in the 94 congressional elections really set the stage for what was to come - it gave Republicans control of the House for the first time in 40 years, and it marked the beginnings of the collapse of the Democrats in rural areas that still bedevils the party today. And there was also a good amount of batshit-crazy conspiracy crap even then, but as the internet was still in its infancy it didn't spread as much as it does today.

Having said that, I do believe that 2016 did something profound to Democrats generally. Not just that Hillary lost - I know plenty of Democrats who were never all that enthusiastic about her - but the idea that so many of their fellow Americans could ever vote for someone as blatantly unqualified to be POTUS in nearly every respect as Donald Trump just shattered a lot of their faith and belief in our democracy and in the basic decency of the American people, and I don't think that faith has ever really recovered, not even with Biden's victory in 2020. 2016 may well be seen as a more profound turning point in our politics than we now realize.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Having said that, I do believe that 2016 did something profound to Democrats generally. Not just that Hillary lost - I know plenty of Democrats who were never all that enthusiastic about her - but the idea that so many of their fellow Americans could ever vote for someone as blatantly unqualified to be POTUS in nearly every respect as Donald Trump just shattered a lot of their faith and belief in our democracy and in the basic decency of the American people, and I don't think that faith has ever really recovered, not even with Biden's victory in 2020. 2016 may well be seen as a more profound turning point in our politics than we now realize.
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What grounds did a liberal in 2016 have for believing in American democracy or decency? We'd only approximated the former since the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which goes to show that we'd never really achieved the latter. Of course, we followed that up with--at the very least--the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.
 
theel4life said:
Not a weird statement. They won’t concede and I fear violence could erupt. Nervous
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You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.
 
breepf said:
What grounds did a liberal in 2016 have for believing in American democracy or decency? We'd only approximated the former since the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which goes to show that we'd never really achieved the latter. Of course, we followed that up with--at the very least--the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.
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I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the successes of the women's movement and gay rights movement. Of course, that also led to the massive backlash that led to Trump and his movement that we're still dealing with today.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.
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"Survived" is a rather relative term, given what happened during covid. Liberals may lose "their ever loving minds" if Trump wins (and for good reasons, I would argue) but I seriously doubt you're going to see them storming the Capitol as happened with Trumpers on 1/6/21, and I doubt there will be any violence if Trump wins - just a lot of disgust and justifiable fear about what happens next.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the women's movement and gay rights movement.
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Don't get me wrong--Trump is completely corrupt and unprincipled. Nevertheless, he managed to stumble into a stark rebuke of American imperialism in the 2016 Republican primary, the sort we'd never expect to hear from "decent" candidates:

”We’ve spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that, frankly, if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the United States to fix our roads, our bridges, and all of the other problems — our airports and all the other problems we have — we would have been a lot better off, I can tell you that right now.

We have done a tremendous disservice not only to the Middle East — we’ve done a tremendous disservice to humanity. The people that have been killed, the people that have been wiped away — and for what? It’s not like we had victory. It’s a mess. The Middle East is totally destabilized, a total and complete mess. I wish we had the 4 trillion dollars or 5 trillion dollars. I wish it were spent right here in the United States on schools, hospitals, roads, airports, and everything else that are all falling apart!”

In short, whatever the gains in domestic liberal rights discourse, the Democrat and Republican establishments routinely manage to excuse and win public support for the worst warmongering.
 
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Mulberry Heel said:
"Survived" is a rather relative term, given what happened during covid. Liberals may lose "their ever loving minds" if Trump wins (and for good reasons, I would argue) but I seriously doubt you're going to see them storming the Capitol as happened with Trumpers on 1/6/21, and I doubt there will be any violence if Trump wins - just a lot of disgust and justifiable fear about what happens next.
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I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.
 
Bigs23 said:
It took me quite awhile to reconcile that a considerable percentage of our population could support a man like trump. Some part of me just couldn’t process it. One day I realized it was true. Since that day I’ve felt a bit differently about these United States of ours.
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Are they supporting trump or an outsider (any outsider) going against a system that’s failing them? It shouldn’t be close, but it is. And the explanation that “people are dumb” is lazy and obtuse.
 
breepf said:

Don't get me wrong--Trump is completely corrupt and unprincipled. Nevertheless, he managed to stumble into a stark rebuke of American imperialism in the 2016 Republican primary, the sort we'd never expect to hear from "decent" candidates:

”We’ve spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that, frankly, if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the United States to fix our roads, our bridges, and all of the other problems — our airports and all the other problems we have — we would have been a lot better off, I can tell you that right now.
We have done a tremendous disservice not only to the Middle East — we’ve done a tremendous disservice to humanity. The people that have been killed, the people that have been wiped away — and for what? It’s not like we had victory. It’s a mess. The Middle East is totally destabilized, a total and complete mess. I wish we had the 4 trillion dollars or 5 trillion dollars. I wish it were spent right
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Frankly, you and I are discussing totally different topics. I'm discussing why liberals at large were shocked by Trump's victory in 2016, and you're discussing American warmongering and imperialism and being a global policeman. And I'm not even disagreeing with you, I'm just discussing something that doesn't relate to that. If you want to take off on that tangent then by all means go ahead, but that wasn't the point of my post.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.
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And I'll bet that you're wrong. Any violence if it happens at all will be very isolated and very small-scale compared to 1/6. Again, there will be a lot of justified fear and disgust and loathing if Trump wins, but no violence. If Trump loses, however, then based on the history of his supporters there is much more likely to be post-election violence.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the successes of the women's movement and gay rights movement. Of course, that also led to the massive backlash that led to Trump and his movement that we're still dealing with today.
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I think the big thing is that while many of us were aware of what a portion of our country believed and how they were willing to behave, 2016 was a shock because we believed that those folks were a distinct minority even in their own party. To have Republicans nominate Trump (although he only got a plurality of votes rather than a clear majority for most of the primaries) was bad, but then to have the country actually elect Trump made plain how many people were willing to support a terrible person for the highest office in our country. The 2016 election made it clear how far much of the country had gone in rejecting a modern, multicultural society that supports and uplifts all Americans.
 
ColdBlueSteel said:
Are they supporting trump or an outsider (any outsider) going against a system that’s failing them? It shouldn’t be close, but it is. And the explanation that “people are dumb” is lazy and obtuse.
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Also racist, bigoted, and scared to death of losing their privilege of being a straight, white Christian when Obama was elected, the LGBTQ community started getting equal rights, and diversity and inclusion started to be embraced.
 
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