2024 Pre-Election Political Polls | POLL - Trump would have had 7 point lead over Biden

[Mulberry Heel]

What grounds did a liberal in 2016 have for believing in American democracy or decency? We'd only approximated the former since the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which goes to show that we'd never really achieved the latter. Of course, we followed that up with--at the very least--the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.

I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the successes of the women's movement and gay rights movement. Of course, that also led to the massive backlash that led to Trump and his movement that we're still dealing with today.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.

"Survived" is a rather relative term, given what happened during covid. Liberals may lose "their ever loving minds" if Trump wins (and for good reasons, I would argue) but I seriously doubt you're going to see them storming the Capitol as happened with Trumpers on 1/6/21, and I doubt there will be any violence if Trump wins - just a lot of disgust and justifiable fear about what happens next.

 

[breepf]

I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the women's movement and gay rights movement.

Don't get me wrong--Trump is completely corrupt and unprincipled. Nevertheless, he managed to stumble into a stark rebuke of American imperialism in the 2016 Republican primary, the sort we'd never expect to hear from "decent" candidates:

”We’ve spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that, frankly, if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the United States to fix our roads, our bridges, and all of the other problems — our airports and all the other problems we have — we would have been a lot better off, I can tell you that right now.

We have done a tremendous disservice not only to the Middle East — we’ve done a tremendous disservice to humanity. The people that have been killed, the people that have been wiped away — and for what? It’s not like we had victory. It’s a mess. The Middle East is totally destabilized, a total and complete mess. I wish we had the 4 trillion dollars or 5 trillion dollars. I wish it were spent right here in the United States on schools, hospitals, roads, airports, and everything else that are all falling apart!”

In short, whatever the gains in domestic liberal rights discourse, the Democrat and Republican establishments routinely manage to excuse and win public support for the worst warmongering.

 

[HeelYeah2012]

"Survived" is a rather relative term, given what happened during covid. Liberals may lose "their ever loving minds" if Trump wins (and for good reasons, I would argue) but I seriously doubt you're going to see them storming the Capitol as happened with Trumpers on 1/6/21, and I doubt there will be any violence if Trump wins - just a lot of disgust and justifiable fear about what happens next.

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

It took me quite awhile to reconcile that a considerable percentage of our population could support a man like trump. Some part of me just couldn’t process it. One day I realized it was true. Since that day I’ve felt a bit differently about these United States of ours.

Are they supporting trump or an outsider (any outsider) going against a system that’s failing them? It shouldn’t be close, but it is. And the explanation that “people are dumb” is lazy and obtuse.

 

[lightbluenc]

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

Agree. From trump crazies towards minorities and immigrants.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Don't get me wrong--Trump is completely corrupt and unprincipled. Nevertheless, he managed to stumble into a stark rebuke of American imperialism in the 2016 Republican primary, the sort we'd never expect to hear from "decent" candidates:

”We’ve spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that, frankly, if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the United States to fix our roads, our bridges, and all of the other problems — our airports and all the other problems we have — we would have been a lot better off, I can tell you that right now.
We have done a tremendous disservice not only to the Middle East — we’ve done a tremendous disservice to humanity. The people that have been killed, the people that have been wiped away — and for what? It’s not like we had victory. It’s a mess. The Middle East is totally destabilized, a total and complete mess. I wish we had the 4 trillion dollars or 5 trillion dollars. I wish it were spent right

Frankly, you and I are discussing totally different topics. I'm discussing why liberals at large were shocked by Trump's victory in 2016, and you're discussing American warmongering and imperialism and being a global policeman. And I'm not even disagreeing with you, I'm just discussing something that doesn't relate to that. If you want to take off on that tangent then by all means go ahead, but that wasn't the point of my post.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

And I'll bet that you're wrong. Any violence if it happens at all will be very isolated and very small-scale compared to 1/6. Again, there will be a lot of justified fear and disgust and loathing if Trump wins, but no violence. If Trump loses, however, then based on the history of his supporters there is much more likely to be post-election violence.

 

[SnoopRob]

I knew someone would say this, but I do think, despite your observations, that a majority of liberals still had enough faith in the American people that they would reject someone like Donald Trump, especially after Obama's two historic elections. Thus the clear shock that was evident the day after the election. I'm well aware of the dark side of American history, but it was also possible to see it as improving considerably over the past half-century, from the successes of the civil rights movement and legislation to the successes of the women's movement and gay rights movement. Of course, that also led to the massive backlash that led to Trump and his movement that we're still dealing with today.

I think the big thing is that while many of us were aware of what a portion of our country believed and how they were willing to behave, 2016 was a shock because we believed that those folks were a distinct minority even in their own party. To have Republicans nominate Trump (although he only got a plurality of votes rather than a clear majority for most of the primaries) was bad, but then to have the country actually elect Trump made plain how many people were willing to support a terrible person for the highest office in our country. The 2016 election made it clear how far much of the country had gone in rejecting a modern, multicultural society that supports and uplifts all Americans.

 

[Carolina Fever]

Are they supporting trump or an outsider (any outsider) going against a system that’s failing them? It shouldn’t be close, but it is. And the explanation that “people are dumb” is lazy and obtuse.

Also racist, bigoted, and scared to death of losing their privilege of being a straight, white Christian when Obama was elected, the LGBTQ community started getting equal rights, and diversity and inclusion started to be embraced.

 

[breepf]

I think we’re just arguing for different definitions of decency. I thought the fundamental indecency of the American public was evident once it re-elected George W Bush.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

I think we’re just arguing for different definitions of decency. I thought the fundamental indecency of the American public was evident once it re-elected George W Bush.

I'm not arguing whether America is decent or not. I was analyzing why a large majority of liberals found the 2016 election so shocking. You are certainly welcome to argue that they were mistaken and that we've never been decent, but that doesn't change my analysis of the 2016 election or the liberal response to it.

 

[DougDaBroadcasta]

You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.

Voting for a man who has stated to Christian activists that non-religious people shouldn't have the right to vote, along with his VP nominee saying that childless people shouldn't have the right to vote either...that's apocalyptic to me.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

I think the big thing is that while many of us were aware of what a portion of our country believed and how they were willing to behave, 2016 was a shock because we believed that those folks were a distinct minority even in their own party. To have Republicans nominate Trump (although he only got a plurality of votes rather than a clear majority for most of the primaries) was bad, but then to have the country actually elect Trump made plain how many people were willing to support a terrible person for the highest office in our country. The 2016 election made it clear how far much of the country had gone in rejecting a modern, multicultural society that supports and uplifts all Americans.

This is a great summary of the point I was trying to make.

 

[wmheel1287]

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

There will not be. There will be a huge amount of disbelief and depression and an even larger amount of totally misplaced chest thumping.

There will also be a complete collapse of faith in the American system of governance by more than half of the country.

That doesn't mean there will be violence.

But it does mean that y'all will find out what it looks like when the dog catches the wheel of the van and you'll be mortified at what you brought onto us all even if you never admit to it. Donald Trump is a horribly vile human who embodies all the worst traits a person can have. That penchant coupled with the absolute terror of anyone in his party to rebuff him is a recipe for cataclysm in our governance. If you don't see that, then you're totally naive.

Ultimately the problem with Trump has never been Trump himself, it has been the complete abandonment of any principled stance by moderate conservatives. "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" comes to mind. Moderate conservatives don't stand for anything. There is quite literally no line that can be crossed regarding rights or treatment of people that will cause them to be introspective or pushback at this point. Sure, they will clutch their pearls and say "well i don't personally agree with THAT" but they won't do anything about it.

Ending abortion..."well i think personally it should be legal but it's not what motivates me"

Abolishing gay marriage..."well i don't have an issue with it but it's not important enough to change my vote"

Mass deportation..."well i think we need rational immigration but I can't really say it affects me"

And the list goes on, and on, and on.

Meanwhile, Trump is surrounded by absolute anarchists and firebreathers but no moderates can be bothered to push back on that.

 

[DougDaBroadcasta]

There will not be. There will be a huge amount of disbelief and depression and an even larger amount of totally misplaced chest thumping.

There will also be a complete collapse of faith in the American system of governance by more than half of the country.

That doesn't mean there will be violence.

But it does mean that y'all will find out what it looks like when the dog catches the wheel of the van and you'll be mortified at what you brought onto us all even if you never admit to it. Donald Trump is a horribly vile human who embodies all the worst traits a person can have. That penchant coupled with the absolute terror of anyone in his party to rebuff him is a recipe for cataclysm in our governance. If you don't see that, then you're totally naive.

There's going to be violence either way, no matter who wins.

 

[milom98]

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

GTFOH with that bs. You're just dreaming up something in your head and probably hoping that it happens, so that you can continue to downplay J6 like you've done for almost 4 years now.

Got any ideas about how the Dems might try to steal the election if they lose? I'm guessing that a fake electors scheme, storming the Capitol to delay certification of the election, pressuring the VP to not certify the election results, numerous bogus lawsuits challenging the election results, asking a Secretary of State to find you enough votes to win... are all off the table since they are already played out.

 

[UNCBAdookJD]

You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.

We survived the first four years of Trump due in part to his own incompetence and in part due to his own cabinet telling him to fuck off when he went too far off the rails. Hes now instituting a loyalty test for appointments because most of his cabinet from his previous administration has endorsed Harris either outright or tacitly by saying don’t vote for Trump. Seriously, when a guy’s own VP, Chief of Staff, SecDef, National Security Advisor, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (among many, many others) say the guy doesn’t belong in the West Wing, he should not be considered a serious or viable candidate.

 

[theel4life]

I have felt that way since 2016.

Red

You don’t truly think the violence from pissed off sore losers will only occur if Harris wins, do you? Half the country is pushing a narrative that a Trump win is apocalyptic even though he’s already been president for 4 years previously and we all survived. People will lose their ever loving minds if Trump wins.

JFC we live in two different realities.

 

[theel4life]

I doubt it’ll come to this because I don’t think Trump will win, but I bet we’ll see violence a lot worse than 1/6/21 if Trump wins the election.

You are a fucking idiot