A Disturbing Email

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4thgenheel said:
imagine that you are a member of the lgbtq community or an immigrant with brown skin.

maga says that you are "filth" or a groomer or a pedo. or a rapist or a murderer or a terrorist.

this has real, serious negative impacts on your life.

why would you be friends with people who support the political movement that vilifies and dehumanizes you?
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What you're describing is different than what was described in the OP. There are situations, and they existed long before MAGA, where ending a friendship might be justified. If I come out to my religious fundamentalist friend, and they respond along the lines of what you described, that may very well justify ending the friendship.
 
I think I missed the part where Claire was in any danger. There are probably lots and lots of dads who might grumble if their daughters started using they/them. That doesn't mean that they will all treat them like shit.

I feel as though this thread needs input from @tech. He's gone through this before from the other side. Sort of, at least.

BTW "agender" is not actually a thing; it's a phase and she'll get over it. It might be more of a form of 4-B than anything.
 
ZenMode said:
What you're describing is different than what was described in the OP. There are situations, and they existed long before MAGA, where ending a friendship might be justified. If I come out to my religious fundamentalist friend, and they respond along the lines of what you described, that may very well justify ending the friendship.
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not really, it's just a little more layered because the abuse isn't being directed at the OP.

OP is progressive and empathetic and his friend is actively denying his daughter's identity, amongst other likely poor behaviors / reactions towards her.
 
superrific said:
I think I missed the part where Claire was in any danger. There are probably lots and lots of dads who might grumble if their daughters started using they/them. That doesn't mean that they will all treat them like shit.

I feel as though this thread needs input from @tech. He's gone through this before from the other side. Sort of, at least.

BTW "agender" is not actually a thing; it's a phase and she'll get over it. It might be more of a form of 4-B than anything.
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i mean......she may be fine and in no danger. or OP's friend may be making her life a living hell. or a whole host of outcomes in between.

we don't know.
 
By the nature of this board and the very thing that brings us all together, everyone who posts here knows such people, are friends with such people, and associates with such people. Always have, always will. The exact nature of the BSC behavior changes from decade to decade, but it is always there. Sure, right now seems like a high tide. But if you carefully examine your own life and positions, perhaps you have grown and have a better understanding of the world and its complexities than you did some decades ago. I personally know that there are some beliefs I held as a child and young adult and some expressions I casually used as a child and young adult that I would be ashamed to have my nose rubbed in today. We all change, and we all change at different times and different rates.

Stay in your friend's life. Agree on the things you agree upon. Ignore/don't bring up the things you disagree upon. The love for a child is a powerful force that can change people in ways they would have deemed unimaginable, but for the love of a child. Be ready with a lot of support and zero "I told you so's" when he decides that he loves his child more than he loves some transitory political ideology.
 
4thgenheel said:
i mean......she may be fine and in no danger. or OP's friend may be making her life a living hell. or a whole host of outcomes in between.

we don't know.
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Right, you don't know, and so to make the leap to assuming that she needs an aggressive outside intervention is unfounded and will almost certainly result in acrimony and heartache for everyone involved.
 
NCK9 said:
Why even write back? To get the last word in? He'll probably respond again....just let it go at this point and avoid/ignore politics with them going forward as you suggest.
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So, just drop his friend and never respond?

It could be an opportunity if the relationship is strong enough to allow for conversation.
 
ZenMode said:
I have no idea. I can't really speak about something that hasn't happened.
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Yep. Your "I can't believe you are willing to lose friends over politics" bit is quite selective in its application. It's always liberals who are supposed to remain friends with MAGAs, even as MAGAs can't help themselves from defecating in their palms and hurling it around.

I used to get emails from my MAGA dad from time to time. They were invariably political, invariably sexist at best, and invariably ignorant and self-righteous. Of course the Dems who he always shat on the most were the women. It's always the women that particularly bother these dinosaurs. HRC, Kamala, Gretchen, Katie Hobbs, lesbo Kagan, sad childless cat lady Sotomayor.

After many times asking him not to do this, I just finally told him I wasn't going to speak with him again. He and I have never been on good terms, but I long ago stopped seeing him as a father and as just a guy. In part because of this exact same behavior -- it's narcissistic and disrespectful to others. But now he's a guy who I hope passes away soon, so he will stop blowing the money my mom saved on options trading.
 
UNCatTech said:
So, just drop his friend and never respond?

It could be an opportunity if the relationship is strong enough to allow for conversation.
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You were in this position before, sort of, if I understand correctly. It was something of a mirror situation -- you were supporting your daughter, and the guys like the OP's "friend" were hostile. But I think you'd probably have insight as to the dynamics of a kid who is gay or trans or something non-traditional and the family and/or community doesn't support them. I'd be curious to hear your take.
 
HeelingAg said:
No, it's not. Politics are reflective of how you view the world, and your advancement of tangible systematic supports and/or suppression of other humans. Religious folks cast aside people all the time on the basis of magical thinking and impossible to verify, or overtly fabricated, historical "truths", which is a much lower bar.
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I don't disagree that politics is one of the ways that reflects how you view the world, but that doesn't mean that a person is inherently bad because they have a view that contradicts with yours. The issue that is dividing America IS that perception.
What's surprising to me is the number of throw-in-the-towelers, with respect to Claire. I'd consider the friendship effectively finished, but the unwillingness of so many to at least attempt to engage Friend, respective to Claire, is sad. Sure, the odds are crushingly low, but a gentle and thoughtful reply, conveying empathy for Friend and Claire, has better than zero chance of opening a productive dialogue. The option to disengage remains, following the 20 minutes needed to thoughtfully reply with empathy, and the 2-10 minutes to read the subsequent reply.
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Unless I missed something, this is all he said in regard to Claire:

"... Unfortunately, Claire <his youngest child> now claims to be "agender" and insists on they/them pronouns - and refuses to wear dresses of any kind. Sucked in by the political correctness of the culture. I do not agree with it, but do my best to maintain peace in the family as she still lives with us."

So, he's stating what happened, followed by his opinion of the situation ("sucked in by the political correctness") and then says he's doing his best to maintain the peace which, to me, sounds like he's keeping his opinions to himself. What is it about the situation that is terrible? As a parent (and husband), I am regularly biting my tongue and keeping thoughts to myself to maintain peace. What is it that makes anyone believe he's mistreating her in any way?
 
superrific said:
Yep. Your "I can't believe you are willing to lose friends over politics" bit is quite selective in its application. It's always liberals who are supposed to remain friends with MAGAs, even as MAGAs can't help themselves from defecating in their palms and hurling it around.

I used to get emails from my MAGA dad from time to time. They were invariably political, invariably sexist at best, and invariably ignorant and self-righteous. Of course the Dems who he always shat on the most were the women. It's always the women that particularly bother these dinosaurs. HRC, Kamala, Gretchen, Katie Hobbs, lesbo Kagan, sad childless cat lady Sotomayor.

After many times asking him not to do this, I just finally told him I wasn't going to speak with him again. He and I have never been on good terms, but I long ago stopped seeing him as a father and as just a guy. In part because of this exact same behavior -- it's narcissistic and disrespectful to others. But now he's a guy who I hope passes away soon, so he will stop blowing the money my mom saved on options trading.
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I didn't say there's never a situation where cutting ties isn't warranted and, yes, my application IS selective based on the specifics of each situation. Yes, I was surprised, based on the details provided in the OP, that so many people were willing to cut the person loose.

You handled your situation how you felt was appropriate. As you said, you and your dad have never been on good terms, so that likely played a role in your decision. It's easier to cut someone loose if you didn't really get a long with them in the first place. That doesn't appear to be the case in the situation described in the OP.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't disagree that politics is one of the ways that reflects how you view the world, but that doesn't mean that a person is inherently bad because they have a view that contradicts with yours. The issue that is dividing America IS that perception.
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It is dividing America in exactly the same manner slavery divided America. Imagine how peaceful life would have been if northerners simply realized that plantation owners merely had a political view that contradicted their own. There was no need to be divisive. Live and let live. You know, they aren't inherently bad just because they have different views as to whether members of the species homo sapiens were actually humans if they had dark skin.

It is dividing America in exactly the same manner the civil rights movement divided America. You're not alone in your diagnosis of the issue dividing America. The Letter From A Birmingham Jail was addressed to people exactly like you.

It is dividing American in exactly the same manner the prohibition on homosexuality in the military (the official prohibition at least) divided America. And whether we should have a constitutional amendment guaranteeing equal rights for women. And whether it's OK to have a black president.
 
superrific said:
I think I missed the part where Claire was in any danger. There are probably lots and lots of dads who might grumble if their daughters started using they/them. That doesn't mean that they will all treat them like shit.

I feel as though this thread needs input from @tech. He's gone through this before from the other side. Sort of, at least.

BTW "agender" is not actually a thing; it's a phase and she'll get over it. It might be more of a form of 4-B than anything.
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We agree 100% on this and I mentioned it in another post.

I guess we can be friends now. 🍻
 
superrific said:
You were in this position before, sort of, if I understand correctly. It was something of a mirror situation -- you were supporting your daughter, and the guys like the OP's "friend" were hostile. But I think you'd probably have insight as to the dynamics of a kid who is gay or trans or something non-traditional and the family and/or community doesn't support them. I'd be curious to hear your take.
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My situation was sort of the opposite in that the "friends" were the anti LBGTQ bigots telling us that our daughter was a sinner and an abomination. So, yes, I dropped the friends as I supported my daughter and my family was more important than any friend.

It's sad how many parents put their peers and religion over family in these cases.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't disagree that politics is one of the ways that reflects how you view the world, but that doesn't mean that a person is inherently bad because they have a view that contradicts with yours. The issue that is dividing America IS that perception.
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it depends on the view.

fiscal policy disagreements, no. oppressing minorities and non-christians and the lgbtq community? yes. inherently bad.
 
superrific said:
It is dividing America in exactly the same manner slavery divided America. Imagine how peaceful life would have been if northerners simply realized that plantation owners merely had a political view that contradicted their own. There was no need to be divisive. Live and let live. You know, they aren't inherently bad just because they have different views as to whether members of the species homo sapiens were actually humans if they had dark skin.

It is dividing America in exactly the same manner the civil rights movement divided America. You're not alone in your diagnosis of the issue dividing America. The Letter From A Birmingham Jail was addressed to people exactly like you.

It is dividing American in exactly the same manner the prohibition on homosexuality in the military (the official prohibition at least) divided America. And whether we should have a constitutional amendment guaranteeing equal rights for women. And whether it's OK to have a black president.
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There are a wide range of topics for disagreement. Clear infringement on basically every human right, slavery, is one end of that range. I've never heard any MAGA people supporting slavery.

Many of the primary areas of political disagreement are much more nuanced and both sides (yep, I said it) have valid concerns IF people take the time to try to listen to what is being said. Their concerns are sometimes based in lies that they've been convinced are true but, in their mind, they often believe they are doing what's right for the country.
 
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