Bigs23
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A Disturbing Email
- Thread starter UNCMSinLS
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Agree with part 1, reject part 2. However, part 1 depends somewhat on how much time this friend has already sat this EarTh SHatTErInG!!!!!!! news that his kid doesn’t prefer the standard binary gender social constructs.
About how old is Claire? Focus your response on them, particularly if you really do know them. DO NOT debunk the gender phobia, nor your friend’s Wile E. Coyote-like inability to avoid the very obvious disinformation and misinformation rabbit holes. There is a small chance he remains comically suspended above the hole, but your friend isn’t the priority, now, and will likely respond to the overwhelming evidence that he’s been duped by entrenching further (his emails contains some of the more doltish mis/disinformation, indicating he may already be terminal). You're not likely to shift his perspective, on much of anything, but give it a go, for Claire, even if the potential shift is slight.
My response would be something to the effect of “I’ve always known Claire to be [insert affirming and pride inducing characteristics and experiences - expand, expand]. From my understanding, I imagine Claire had to muster quite a lot of courage to reveal this part of herself/themselves (I debate about the misgendering- I tend to think you should, at this time, to keep your friend on the line). At the same time, I can only imagine how this feels as a parent of a kid whom you love deeply and for whom you want the absolute best, but suddenly find yourself profoundly conflicted by something as socially prominent, and hammered in the media, as gender.”
I’d then say something to the effect of:
“I too have experienced confusion and dissonance, at times, with the evolution of gender terms and norming. Middle-age is a weird and disorienting space. The world changes with each generation, often at dizzying speed, and I find it can be hard to keep up. At times, I’ve felt like the bad guy for not understanding what’s important to younger generations; though, I’ve appreciated their eagerness to educate and express themselves, when I’ve approached with neutral curiosity. In my experience with Claire, she is [more plaudits re thoughtfulness, courage, independence etc. maybe throw in a commonly shared anecdote that friend can reflect fondly upon]. She’s a great kid, and I’m eager to be here for her, [insert spouse, if you think appropriate], and you. If you’re willing, I’d appreciate a chance to talk things out over the phone or lunch; writing “thoughtful” emails takes me so much damn time! Best, my friend.”
Some of this might not apply if Claire is quite young and/or a bit of a pill, but you’re a smart person with the ability to adjust language, as needed. My focus would be singularly on trying to focus on empathy within the family and between you and friend - it’s the only inroad that eventually leads this situation to a healthy ending.
ETA: I initially missed that you may be older than I presumed and maybe not as communicative with friend - which would change my language, but not my overall aim.
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OP, please don’t do this. Do not challenge the identity of a parent, when they’re actively simmering about their kid’s gender identity. It is exceedingly likely they will eventually take out their gender bigotry on their kid.
Why even write back? To get the last word in? He'll probably respond again....just let it go at this point and avoid/ignore politics with them going forward as you suggest.
Centerpiece
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Well, I see see HeelingAg down voted my advice… so perhaps I should qualify my earlier response by asking: how close is the friend to you and your family now? I mean “best friend from college”, and attendants at each others wedding sounds like you guys interact daily and see each other every weekend. But in reality you don’t interact that often at all other than a greeting card or two… and you haven’t actually seen him or his family in several years, I take it? Including daughter Claire? (If you haven’t seen him in decades, I doubt you even know Claire. Correct?)
if you’re just now learning about his true feelings and beliefs about all that crap - after these 8 years of trump - I’m thinking you haven’t really engaged with him that much during that time frame. Surely to God he’s expressed similar feelings and thoughts to you since 2015/2016.
But face it, you sort of started it with your email to him. He simply told you where he stands. Believe him at his word. He admitted that you won’t see eye to eye, and he did give warning: “rant coming”.
Let him have his rant. You can choose to rant back or follow my advice above. HeelingAg has offered alternative advice
if you’re just now learning about his true feelings and beliefs about all that crap - after these 8 years of trump - I’m thinking you haven’t really engaged with him that much during that time frame. Surely to God he’s expressed similar feelings and thoughts to you since 2015/2016.
But face it, you sort of started it with your email to him. He simply told you where he stands. Believe him at his word. He admitted that you won’t see eye to eye, and he did give warning: “rant coming”.
Let him have his rant. You can choose to rant back or follow my advice above. HeelingAg has offered alternative advice
Perhaps so...
an0maly
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I regret opening and reading this. Your friend is gone, in a certain and horrific sense.
You see above the leader of a cult that I think is amazingly like Trump in leading his cult, and somewhat analogous to what he will do to his cult. Among the people who followed Jim Jones, to the point of leaving all rationality, leaving the real world, killing their children and killing themselves, were educated people, as your friend likely is. The followers of both cults readily accepted a large set of lies, due to emotional commitment that shuts down the neocortex in the brain--and in that all objective and analytical thinking. I counted about 8 lies or gross distortions of basic reality in what he wrote, likely from social media and Fox "News" type sources, and your attempts to re-orient him to reality are very likely to fail. There is a poster right in this thread for whom such attempts would be a failure.
As to your asking for advice, I wish something else was true and that there was something else, more hopeful, I could offer. Many tens of millions of Americans have a mindset like this friend--at root a cult mindset--and that why there are untold bad things ahead of all of us.
You see above the leader of a cult that I think is amazingly like Trump in leading his cult, and somewhat analogous to what he will do to his cult. Among the people who followed Jim Jones, to the point of leaving all rationality, leaving the real world, killing their children and killing themselves, were educated people, as your friend likely is. The followers of both cults readily accepted a large set of lies, due to emotional commitment that shuts down the neocortex in the brain--and in that all objective and analytical thinking. I counted about 8 lies or gross distortions of basic reality in what he wrote, likely from social media and Fox "News" type sources, and your attempts to re-orient him to reality are very likely to fail. There is a poster right in this thread for whom such attempts would be a failure.
As to your asking for advice, I wish something else was true and that there was something else, more hopeful, I could offer. Many tens of millions of Americans have a mindset like this friend--at root a cult mindset--and that why there are untold bad things ahead of all of us.
4thgenheel
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tough situation. you likely aren't going to be able to change his mind about anything.
i feel very bad for claire. she needs support.
i feel very bad for claire. she needs support.
Yeah, If they are so fixated on their indoctrination that they believe in antediluvian times and such, neither science, logic or anything else is going to sway them.
I'd make a clean break, if it were me, other than trying to get a message to Claire that there was always a place to go for safety and support. I'd be afraid more might be a triggering event. I don't know how close or important they are to you so I can't decide for you. Their world view is too complicated for me. Not only is special circumstance accepted, it's expected. Sorry, I've seen what's supposed to be the rule book but I'll be damned if I know where to get the magic decoder rings most of these people seem to have. It must let them see things in a much different light.
ChapelHillSooner
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He watches too much Fox News. Doubt you would be able to deprogram him so just move on.
When Trump destroys our country as I believe he will, your friend will just create a narrative that it is God’s punishment for the liberal excesses.
I had a text exchange with a 35+ year friend who has become a massive Trumper earlier this week that essentially marked the end of our relationship. I've managed to maintain the relationship for quite some time despite his spiraling conspiratorial leanings. On the 6th I texted him, complimenting the Dems on their peaceful transition of power (I was def. poking the bees nest) and it led to claims of voter fraud in elections, election denial, references to the deep state, etc etc.
At some point in time you just have to come to the realization that these people are clinically insane and simply aren't worth having in your life any longer. It's a shame.... but living in reality should be a minimum requirement for a meaningful friendship right?
At some point in time you just have to come to the realization that these people are clinically insane and simply aren't worth having in your life any longer. It's a shame.... but living in reality should be a minimum requirement for a meaningful friendship right?
4thgenheel
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you've said this before and clearly, many/most of us around here disagree with you. it isn't shocking at all.
these people's "political views" are often hateful and rooted in bigotry and the oppression of minorities, the lgbtq community, etc.
and sometimes just outright insane and detached from reality.
why would anyone want to be friends with people who are so actively harmful both in the micro sense (your relationship with them) and the macro sense (the damage they're doing to our country and society)?
rodoheel
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You obviously disagree with a lot of what he said (as do I) but I don't see anything in there that is a reason to cut him off. It's not, like, Q-Anon, more like fairly mainstream Fox News BS. I'd probably be inclined to ignore the part about his child, say that you disagree about a lot of political things but agree that we all need to work together towards a better future, and say that you hope to see him in person sometime soon so you two can debate the best path forward.
In general I think it is much easier/more productive to talk to people about politics in person than trying to debate it in an email or text exchange,
ETA: and then you can decide later whether you really need to invest any further emotional energy into the friendship. I didn't want you to read my post to suggest that you had to.
In general I think it is much easier/more productive to talk to people about politics in person than trying to debate it in an email or text exchange,
ETA: and then you can decide later whether you really need to invest any further emotional energy into the friendship. I didn't want you to read my post to suggest that you had to.
ZenMode
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Your response to me, while giving a thumbs up to rodoheel's post, is quite the dichotomy.
4thgenheel
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i can respect both approaches. there is no one-size-fits-all.
grown adults are welcome to handle their interpersonal relationships as they see fit.
ZenMode
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Of course. I said nothing to the contrary. I just said I was shocked at how many people are willing to end friendships over politics.
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Remind him of Christ’s love, compassion and mercy.
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No, it's not. Politics are reflective of how you view the world, and your advancement of tangible systematic supports and/or suppression of other humans. Religious folks cast aside people all the time on the basis of magical thinking and impossible to verify, or overtly fabricated, historical "truths", which is a much lower bar.
What's surprising to me is the number of throw-in-the-towelers, with respect to Claire. I'd consider the friendship effectively finished, but the unwillingness of so many to at least attempt to engage Friend, respective to Claire, is sad. Sure, the odds are crushingly low, but a gentle and thoughtful reply, conveying empathy for Friend and Claire, has better than zero chance of opening a productive dialogue. The option to disengage remains, following the 20 minutes needed to thoughtfully reply with empathy, and the 2-10 minutes to read the subsequent reply.
It's likely I'm amongst the most cynical regulars on the board, and likely at or near the top of my milieu. I have next to zero faith in the collective mass of humanity, and feel near certain the species has all but signed its own death warrant. But, I continue to believe in engagement, outreach, and advocacy for a person in need, because none of use chose to be here, none of us chose our genetics, and none of us chose our bio family. Claire is choosing their pronouns likely on the basis of a feeling they did not choose. Claire is also a member of conservatives' scapegoat du jour. They have a steep and slippery mountain in front of them.
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